Raising Wildlings

Fostering Family Connections and Resilience Through Outdoor Education with Kristi Bryant

Vicci Oliver and Nicki Farrell Season 5 Episode 12

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What does it take to create meaningful outdoor experiences for families? Join us as we sit down with Kristi Bryant, passionate outdoor and environmental educator behind Bushwalking Mama. Kristi opens up about her journey in documenting and inspiring family-friendly outdoor activities, and the innovative methods she employs to integrate play and connection into outdoor learning. 

In this episode, we spotlight the significance of autonomy and personal choice in outdoor activities. Kristi emphasises the need for positive relationships and accommodating individual needs to foster a genuine connection with nature. We discuss the delicate balance between encouraging participation and respecting personal boundaries, ensuring everyone feels comfortable and respected in their outdoor educational adventures. Kristi's approach underscores the importance of gradual steps and listening to individual concerns, creating a supportive environment conducive to learning and growth.

We also explore the transformative power of outdoor education in building resilience and overcoming fears. Kristi shares personal experiences and the challenges of starting a business in the nature play industry, from risk assessments to insurance hurdles. 

Tune in for an inspiring episode that champions the resilience, collaboration, and passion at the heart of outdoor education and nature play.

Ever wondered how to bring the magic of 'Nature Play' into your child's education? Or how to say goodbye to your worries about snakes and ticks? With Nature Play Now, crafting an epic outdoor program is easier than you think. You’ll boost your confidence, skill sets, and have parents eager to enrol. Join the adventure for just $57, exclusively for Raising Wildlings listeners. Visit our Raising Wildlings website for more details today!"

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Hey it’s Nicki here interrupting this episode to quickly say, if you’re like us and feeling torn between your career as an educator vs. your beliefs for child development, 

We’ve created a 5 step e-guide to unlock your purpose without compromising your values. 

This Treasure Map is completely free, takes ten minutes, and is available from our Raising Wildlings website. So  dive in and s

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Your Wild Business is the only program that focuses on the business side of nature play, with sustainable practices, processes, and systems that will cut down your administration work, giving you more time to focus on building a business that is centered around your e

Other ways we can help you:

1. Ready to create your own Nature Play business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to starting your business journey.

2. Keen to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.

3. Want to know how to craft an epic outdoor program that has parents and directors lining up to enrol? You need Nature Play Now our $57 Workshop and Bundle series (people are saying this is a steal!)

Speaker 1:

In today's episode we're chatting with Christy Bryant, outdoor and environmental education teacher from Bushwalking Mama. Christy has spent the last 25 years guiding and engaging with people in remote and residential environments. Her vision for Bushwalking Mama is to create spaces and opportunities for engagement with nature and connection to country, with a focus on nature, play for all ages, bushcraft, creative workshops and women's space connections. We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we record today the Kabi Kabi and Gubbi Gubbi people. We recognise their continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place. We recognise Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. We respect all Gubbi Gubbi elders, ancestors and emerging elders and all First Nations people listening today.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.

Speaker 1:

Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.

Speaker 2:

We're your hosts. Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School, Pop in your headphones, settle in and join us on this next adventure. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in and join us on this next adventure.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Farrell. Good morning, Christy. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you on this? Well, it's beautiful and fine and blue sky here. How is it there and where are you? Let's talk about that.

Speaker 3:

First of all, thank you so much for having me. It's great to finally meet you on the platform that we're on. I'm in Cooma, I'm on Narrago country, and it is beautiful and sunny, even though, at whatever time it is now, it is still frosty. There's still a good layer of frost on the ground. So we've been living here for about nine weeks now and still getting used to the weather, but really trying to lean into it and get to know it.

Speaker 1:

I feel cold just thinking about it. We've had the fire cranking here four weeks. I think the low is, you know, not even 10 degrees. We might have hit single digits somewhere, but I've definitely not seen a frost yet.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, before I moved here, I mean, I grew up in a cold climate, but for the last 20 years I've been in quite a warm one, and if it ever dipped below 20 degrees Celsius I was definitely wearing a jumper. And now I'm finding myself outside at. You know, it's top of eight degrees.

Speaker 1:

I'm like oh it's not too bad oh great Acclimatizing fast Waking the washing out. And hope it dries in 12 hours time.

Speaker 3:

Amazing.

Speaker 1:

All right, let's get started by having you tell us all about your journey in deciding to start Bushwalking, mama. So talk to us about where you've come from and why now.

Speaker 3:

So Bushwalking Mama actually started a good maybe 10 years ago and just started as a record of the things that we were doing. You know Instagram was big and just thought I'd record the things that we were doing. You know Instagram was big and just thought I'd record the things that we were doing as a family outside and had a blog going a WordPress blog and just wanted to share some ideas for people. I've been in outdoor education forever, since a whole different century, since 1990.

Speaker 1:

Way to make us feel old. Thanks, Christy.

Speaker 3:

And you know, just in conversations with people I was seeing people not reluctant but maybe just a bit fearful about getting outside with the kids and not knowing how to do things. So I started just blogging things that were happening, that we were doing with our family and in the meantime I was working in outdoor education in primary schools, in high schools, as a teacher and taking people outside and just it's a great classroom. I love being outdoors and it's even when I was working in the classroom in schools most of our time would be spent outdoors and you know there are so many ways that you can take any subject, any criteria, anything outside and do it outside. And I noticed that our classes were easier outside. They were students were more engaged, more likely to lean into activities that we were doing. It was more, it was easier to make activities engaging when I was outside. But I think it's because that's my comfort zone, you know. I know that I feel good outside and I feel contained when I'm in a classroom. So taking kids outside was a good way for us to share learning, I guess is the best way to put it.

Speaker 3:

Most recently I've been working, or I was working, in an outdoor education centre. It was a private school. They have their own outdoor education centre and the students would come up yearly so they'd spend a week with us and after COVID we were noticing that the kids were actually pretty. The students were actually pretty fearful and anxious and nervous not only about being away from home and being outside, but just about trying new activities. About trying new activities and they were anxious in their social connections and about just even taking the steps to start a new activity. And I had a pretty amazing and wonderful head of department and we had a conversation about just introducing connection, so making the camps about connection, but also just introducing a whole heap of play and making sure I don't call it free play, because all play should be free, but you shouldn't have to earn it or pay for it, it's just play right? Yes, and we noticed that when there was playtime and we made sure that there was you know, our hope was to have four or five hours of play, nice, so it's not like 20 minutes, because you can't.

Speaker 3:

It takes a while to warm up into play. You can't actually engage and disconnect from what you've been doing and engage in the play. Without a good time, you know, frame to be able to do that in, but we were noticing that we were getting less people you know frame to be able to do that in, but we were noticing that we were getting less people you know less people saying no to trying the ropes course, for instance, because it was never you need to get up on that ropes course. It was hey, here's a ropes course, do you want to try it? And people would say, no, I'm not doing that, and we'd say, okay, well, you know, maybe watch it engage in other ways.

Speaker 3:

Um, but when we introduced the play, the numbers of rejection of new activities went down. Wow, and it was kind of just validation for all of the research that we were banking on to say that if we practice play, we can be more forgiving of our own mistakes and so we become less fearful of making mistakes and so we are ready to engage in new learning experiences. Yes, that's my most recent employment. And then we had a big family shift. We moved from the place that we'd been living in for 20-something years and we've moved to a new area and thought this is actually a good opportunity to maybe make Bushwalking Mama into something that is a culmination of everything that I've learnt over the last 25 years.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

And bring something into a space and create something, and invent something, that play with something that is, you know, of benefit to not only kids but to, hopefully, teens and adults as well.

Speaker 1:

So, um, the plans are to, because play shouldn't just be for little kids we know all the benefits for children um, I'm not sure why we stop can you delve into that a bit more for me, because I'm a, you know, I'm an ex-high school teacher too, and teens are my passion. Why is it so important, you know, and why do we forget about them?

Speaker 3:

I'm not sure that it's that we forget. I think it's, I think it's cultural. I don't even know that everybody who persists with the culture even believes in it. You know, I don't. I don't know too many teachers that say, hey, this, this system's working really well for us, you know.

Speaker 1:

For everyone doesn't it? As a fellow teacher, when you ask around and go is this, do you think this is the best model? And not a single teacher goes 100%. This is it 100%? Believe in it.

Speaker 3:

Not one. Yeah, you know it's. I don't know why we forget about it. I think it's.

Speaker 3:

I think it's that at some stage we learn that the making mistakes is wrong, and so we really push with the getting it right, which kind of brings us more into being taught things rather than learning things. And so if we're being taught things, then we don't leave room for play, because we need to get something that someone has taught us right. So we stop with the playing and we start with what we think is learning. But you know, we start with the being taught things and sometimes we miss out on the, sometimes we miss out on the autonomy of being able to direct our own learning, and so then you know, it just drops off, the priority drops off, and so it's like trying to run before you can walk. If we miss a big step of it, it's really difficult to then launch back into it. My experience was that when we told our students that they had playtime, a few of them kind of looked at me and just went what Was that particularly for?

Speaker 1:

teenagers what do we?

Speaker 3:

do? Yeah, absolutely that. Grade five onward is just the well, we're not kids. Of course you are. Yeah, and this is it. Grade five isward is just the well, we're not kids.

Speaker 1:

Of course you are, yeah and this is it Grade five is still so young, like in the Nordic kind of system you're barely actually being put into the academic system by that age. Like when did we stop giving children permission to you know again, not free play, but play? And when you said five hours before I went, wow, how many teenagers would have been given five hours, like permission to just play for five hours without it being, you know, organised sport, or you know you're at a birthday party, so you're at a time zone, or laser tag or how, and they probably don't think about it when they're at the beach. So probably going to the beach and hanging out at the beach is probably the closest they get to things like five hours of play. And how sad is that. It's no wonder they've forgotten how to connect with themselves and connect with nature and connect with their own ways of learning too.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's it. You know it's a bit like riding a bike and you can warm up to doing it again, but the thought of getting on that bike can be pretty scary.

Speaker 1:

I like that analogy.

Speaker 3:

Initially, you know, we'd have students coming up and going well, what do I do? And we'd say, well, we've given you all of these options. So, so, because we had options and we had guided options, because, you know, they didn't know what they were doing when they had to come away, but then by the end of their time with us, they were able to just go out and do whatever they'd found most interesting to them. So, yeah, it was, it was pretty good and it was outdoors, everything was outdoors. So, unless, unless and I really want to stipulate this unless they needed a break from being outdoors, because not everybody's into the outdoors, you know, you don't have to be an outdoors person so we have, you know, arts and crafts and, um lego.

Speaker 3:

Oh, there's nothing lego can't do. I love, love Lego. A lot of you know textural stuff, board games, card games, things like that. So it's still play, it's still communal, it's still active and engaging and an option to just sit and do absolutely nothing, rest is important.

Speaker 1:

I want to touch on that a bit more because I thousand percent agree with you that you don't need to be gung-ho outdoorsy and you don't even need to love or even like the outdoors, and getting outside in nature is really important. So how do we encourage people to get their vitamin D, their fresh air? You know, exercise, sure, go to the gym. You can do it indoors, indoor soccer, whatnot. You do still need sunlight. How do we get those that? And why do they not like it? Is it fear generally, do you find, or is it just not interesting, which is cool and fair enough? But again, how do we get them to connect to nature when we're not gung-ho outdoorsy?

Speaker 3:

Sure, and I'm not sure that should always be our aim either.

Speaker 3:

I think, consent plays a really big part in getting outside and I think being able to make your own decision on being outside is the best. Maybe not the best, but it's the way that I feel most comfortable. Encouraging people to be outside is to take ownership of when they spend that time outside. So if it is, you know going and sitting on the veranda and you know you know going and sitting on the veranda and you know reading or Resting, taking resting or taking a device or whatever it is, you know if you're going outside and that's your comfort zone, then that's what gets you outside. You know it's. I don't throwing it. I would worry that throwing someone in the deep end of a situation that they're not comfortable in removes their consent. It removes their ability to identify any risks that are there because they're blinded by it. It's not their choice, yeah, so I don't think that's an encouraging way to get people outside.

Speaker 3:

So I think it's just giving ownership.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which to me comes back to which I love, because you know we are all about autonomy here. It's because, again, it's got to be a totally, very intrinsically motivated. You force people to do it. You know, if you force me to go outside, I would eventually hate it too. So, but I think what I'm hearing from you then is it's maybe relationships as well, and maybe sometimes in in some institutions don't want to use that word. What's another word? In some of the places that we do take students outdoors and children outdoors, in some of the places that we do take students outdoors and children outdoors, they are forced outdoors. I'm thinking of myself as an ex-PE teacher. You know, when one girl had a period, four weeks in a row, and I had to be eventually like she didn't. She just didn't want to do PE.

Speaker 3:

I'm just taking that on face value going. Oh my goodness, she must have been so uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:

I know, and eventually I just said to her I said you can just be really honest with me and just tell me why you don't want to be here and why you don't want to. You know what you don't like. And she's like, oh, you know she was feeling body shamed, so that was a whole thing we needed to unravel. You know, there was a whole thing so. So but we were forcing her. You know, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to to the point that she had to lie about a medical condition to get out of it. So I can agree with you. So how do you go about building positive relationships that not encourage because again, I don't want to force people outside but to connect with, to help them find that connection with nature?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think building a relationship with nature is a bit like building a relationship with a person or anything else. You know it's step by step, sometimes Not everybody's going to launch straight into it. You might need accommodations or support or a different kind of experience. You know, I don't want to do mud play today because I don't like the way my hands get wet, I don't like the feeling of the squishiness. I don't want to be barefoot because I don't like my feet uncovered and you know I'm worried that I'm going to get bitten.

Speaker 3:

Or the grass is scrunchy and I don't want to put my feet on it, or my feet are really cold and I want to have my shoes on, please, if it is an outdoor activity, and we know that it is important to get outside. So even just listening and asking what would make you feel more comfortable, because there's a lot of things that I don't like doing, but on an intellectual level I know they're good for me. So sometimes I make accommodations to make it more comfortable for me. Yeah, you know I don't enjoy eating cauliflower, for instance, but I know that I can accommodate that by doing something cooking it differently or seasoning it or hiding it in something. Exactly, cheese solves everything.

Speaker 1:

Just reminded me of again. You know, back in the just about previous century, I was working in an outdoor rec centre too and I was just thinking of the gaps we sometimes have where programs aren't as accessible and the privileges we probably have sometimes that we don't even realise we have. We had a Pidginjara mob come from up north down to the ocean. The only thing they could book with us was kayaking or sailing, and yet not one of those students had ever seen the ocean, you know. So we got there and we're like, oh, great to have you here. You know, let's get in the kayak. And they were just like get stuffed. Like, are you kidding, I'm not getting in that rocky boat? Out deep I can't swim. So we spent the morning just going up to our knees and frolicking and playing and the joy on their faces and I just think, oh wow, that was a big gap, a big gap in our programming.

Speaker 1:

And again, like things having to be structured, you can only book in for this. You can't just book in to come here and use the resources however you please as well. Like you said, giving them that choice to play then would have been the best thing we could have done for that group at that time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, oh for sure, and you know the fact that you were able to accommodate that and just go into your knees. But you know that's fantastic, you know, and that's an introduction and that's an experience and it's turned into a positive one which you know if you're more likely to want to engage with it again, if the experience has been positive and you know it's we know the benefits for us, we know the benefits for the planet of people engaging with nature. Every positive experience is a step towards just building that depth of relationship.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So here's your permission, parents, that if it's your children are out on the veranda with your device, it's still. You're still like cause, you are nature and I think that's the thing we always forget. You're not, you're not connecting with nature, You're, you're reconnecting with your nature because you are nature, and sometimes that is just getting sun on your face on the veranda on your device. That's okay, it's just, it's all good. It doesn't matter how it comes, it's all good.

Speaker 3:

And I think it helps if we think about our own comfort levels. You know I've been in the outdoors for decades, but if it's cold, windy and rainy I'm not going to like talking about it now. I can't pretend that I'm stoked about it.

Speaker 3:

You know, I'm out in it and whinging about it's not going to make a difference to the weather. The weather's not going to care and I'm going to get through it. But it's because I have that experience, you know, I have that behind me anyway. I'm able to reflect and engage and regulate myself and I have strategies for that regulation. But if it's my first time outdoors or I'm on my first experience and it ends up being cold and windy and rainy man, I'm going to be scared. I didn't always love the outdoors. On my year 10 camp at my own school, we had a 24-hour solo and we were given a tarp and some rope and you know things to light a fire with and I didn't love it. I didn't love it at all. Most adults wouldn't love that.

Speaker 3:

No, I wrapped myself up in my tarp and I cried Like I didn't even set it up.

Speaker 1:

But you wouldn't have been the only one that did that either, because that's an extreme. Like you said, we're plucking these teenagers from their four walls and their perfectly heated, perfectly comfortable houses to then go off. You go, good luck. That's a big gap there. That's a huge gap, huge gap, huge gap. No wonder they come out hating it.

Speaker 3:

We're going to get you to jump off this pole, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Even though you hate heights, and just hope that you trust. Yeah, yeah, it's wild, isn't it? Yeah, just trust. Just trust me, it is who you've. Yeah, yeah, it's wild, isn't it? Yeah, just trust, just trust me who you've met today your outdoor ed leader, who hasn't been working with you all year. I'm the new face, but it's fine. I've checked these ropes. You're good. The sane. Sane students are the ones that are like no thanks.

Speaker 3:

But at the same time, teenagers, you know really you need to get your head around consent and that no means no, and you know you need to listen to how people are feeling.

Speaker 1:

And you know, don't succumb to peer pressure. But I'm going to sit here and go. You can do it. Come on, it's not that bad. I'm going to gaslight you the whole way.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, come on Watch your mate, he's doing it.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god. I do know that outdoor ed practices have changed significantly in the last 20 years, which is great. They have and they have, and yet we can always improve.

Speaker 3:

We can and look. I'm not suggesting, I am not suggesting in any way that that's what outdoor ed programs are like now no me almost every outdoor educator that I have met and environmental educator that I've met. They have a really, really good awareness and, um, I don't even want to say acceptance. It's just being a decent human towards people, isn't it? You know, it's just.

Speaker 1:

I actually think and I'm probably biased because I am an ex one, but I do think outdoor educators have an additional or more practice in coaching particularly teenagers through hard moments without the gaslighting and validating emotions, because you can't get someone up a pole without validating their fears. You just can't, you know, and I just think the outdoor ed teachers are amazing.

Speaker 3:

We can't get someone through the day without validating their fears.

Speaker 1:

No, yeah, so to feel that there is an additional skill they acquire mainly through experience. I don't think it's actually explicitly taught anywhere with that relationship connecting, and it's not just the experiences which, yes, you know maybe there's some trauma bonding over the high, high ropes course and pole no joking, but you know there is a level of relationship building. I think that helps.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, anyway, that was a side yeah, and I think it's a I mean it's. It's a privilege about direct teachers, though, as well, is that they do actually get that extra time. There is time, and it's something that's not present in a lot of classrooms. It's you know and it's not graded, You're not assessing you're not ticking on a box to say that you got your. You know 82% of your students above this level that you know 16 out of 20 have been able to show that they can wash dishes correctly or mediate conversation.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you just nailed it, Chrissy. You get to fail and not be graded on that failure. So you get to try and you can try and try and try and try again. That's the other thing. If you don't make the poll today, you can go tomorrow or you can have three goes today until you get it, Whereas if you do the maths test, that's it. You know not in high school, you don't get another chance to do that and then you move on as well. You don't get to go back and consolidate your learning.

Speaker 3:

It's just no, you just move on to the next, you just scale up. You don't get to consolidate those skills, you just scale up, okay next topic.

Speaker 1:

I want to bring up that failure because I had a conversation with a huge corporation this week about their motto is fail fast, and I just think maybe that's where outdoor ed, nature, play, whatever you want to call us. That's why children feel safe in these programs is because they are allowed to fail without being graded. They can fail fast, they can move on, they can go backwards, they can consolidate their learning. There's no repercussions at all for failing. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think in those situations there are repercussions, but they're not negative. If you fail, there's usually someone there who can say oh, I tried it this way, or you know, here's something that might help, or you know, do you need help? Or you're doing great, or here's some encouragement, or I've failed before too. This is really hard, this is tricky.

Speaker 1:

You know, this is tricky yeah, you know, should we work together on this?

Speaker 3:

yeah, let's make version two yeah, yeah, um, or do we want to take a break?

Speaker 1:

yeah, do we?

Speaker 3:

want to not be doing this right now. You know if, if this is really tricky for us right now, maybe, maybe we move on to something different there's. We're not. We're not disregarding it, we're just giving ourselves space from it.

Speaker 3:

And allowing ourselves to regulate again again, yeah, and we're building our resilience and I know that resilience is a bit of a catch phrase at the moment, but in a true sense we're actually building our resilience and our ability to try again. But we're also building our risk competency. We're building our what do I want to try again and what don't I want to try again? What is a risk worth taking and what isn't worth taking? Who can I turn to if I have made a mistake? What supports will I be offered?

Speaker 3:

So you know, I love the failing fast thing, because if we're willing to fail fast, it's because we know we've got a landing, because failing isn't falling, but if it were, it's good to know that we've got a landing, a safe one, or that a safe one, or the level of safety that we're going to have with that risk and if we can practice our risk-taking and practice the judgment of our landing then, you know that that helps us with.

Speaker 3:

You know we take small I don't want to say smaller risks, because there's big learning, but we the consequences of the risk that we take when we're younger with good support, um might not be as extreme as some of the risks that we take when we're younger with good support, might not be as extreme as some of the risks that we take when we're older and we have access to all sorts of different other risk taking avenues. So having that practice and knowing what our landing is going to be like is really important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%, 100%. I want to backtrack a little bit here. So Bushwalking Mama is quite new, and you've mentioned your vision for Nature Play for All. What I want to ask you is what made you take the leap? Because one of the reasons I got you on was because you're articulate, you're intelligent, you can, you know, I can tell your experience as well, but you're very new. So what made you take the leap? And in my head, you're a competent person who I think could work this out. Might take time, but you could work it out. So why did you take the leap and purchase Wild Business? Our course.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so glad we get to talk about it. I was introduced to it a couple of years ago actually, and a friend of mine actually said you should look into this, and I wasn't in a position at that stage to do it. At that stage and for whatever reason, it just wasn't the right time. And when we made our move and I keep getting this image of the word disconnect when we disconnected and it was a new start, I started to think about what I was going to be doing and I thought I want to start Bushwalking, mama Up, and not only for nature play, but for hiking and for camping and for holding women's space and support networks, creating a space for support networks for women who want to do more outdoors. And I thought I don't think I can do this by myself. And it's not a lack of confidence, it's actually a recognition of I'm the person. You know this is me.

Speaker 3:

I have, you know, I have my husband. He's amazing, he's very supportive, he loves it, he's right behind it, he's had a career in outdoor education as well, and so he's all across. You know, I've got someone to check over all my risk management and assessment and all of that kind of stuff as well. But I just I had a look at your. Is it the Nature Play? There's like a Nature Play now it's a bit like a taster. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a taster.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly what it is.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I went this is good resource. I like this resource and you know I've been a teacher for a long time and I create resources and I just went this is good. So it gave me the confidence to know that the business course was going to be good. And I've followed you and Vicky and what you do and I really, really love what you do with community and space and the values that you drive your business with, and not just your activities but your business.

Speaker 3:

You know, um their, their great community and connection values, and so I thought, okay, well, the resources are good. I feel like our values are aligned, so I have no business experience before this. I need help. Why not? This is a good time. What can I lose? I love that.

Speaker 1:

I love that, besides the warm fuzzies I just got there, oh, thank you. It's still that leap, though, and, I think, a leaving your secure job and I mean you're moving as well, so you've had some huge life changes.

Speaker 1:

Oh, huge man, I think what, I think you know, the. What have you got to lose? That's that's the crux of the question for me, so is it that you are prepared to fail and not see failure as a failure, or what is it? Because I, the I, I know I could name 50 other people that would love to do this, and some of it's financial, and that's totally, I 100% understand it. I reckon 80% of it, though, is just not being ready to take the leap, and I just cannot nail what it is stopping people other than finances. What is it?

Speaker 3:

Well, other than what was stopping me, because, um, that's for probably my therapist, but um what started?

Speaker 1:

me. That's a really valid point, though, isn't it like I want to touch?

Speaker 3:

on that. It's all in, yeah, but what? What started me and what gave me the push was probably just how many years have I asked someone and you gave the example before of a ropes course what's the worst that could happen?

Speaker 1:

A bit different on a ropes course.

Speaker 3:

Maybe, maybe yes, maybe no, you know on a ropes course. We mitigate and manage risk yeah in business we mitigate and manage risk 100. It's a different, I guess, category of risk, but it's it's still risk. So if I've spent 25 years encouraging people to be comfortable taking risks, maybe there's a lesson in there for me somewhere.

Speaker 1:

And A yay for therapy, because I do think that, you know, looking at this from a lens of we've had, you know, say, 100-ish people purchase the course, I would say at least 50% have gone through and started their own business. There's a percentage of people that, for whatever reason, haven't got it up and running yet and again, often this isn't for want, it is. You know, I've just had a baby, I've just moved house, ill family member.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so it's not the confidence, yeah, but yeah, I think sometimes therapy is the answer, because I know, speaking to all of these people, I'm like you are again, intelligent, you are articulate, you have the experience, you have the passion and the drive. I can teach you everything else, like we can teach you anything else you need to know, because I know you're teachable. So the only thing missing is that confidence, which I actually sometimes think is therapy.

Speaker 3:

So I'm here to champion for therapy and but do you know what, like you give that in the course? You know the first module is all about. You know, dealing with imposter syndrome and you know, knowing that you're worth it and knowing that you know you've made this decision because you've calculated it and you can back your decision. It's not you know you've already bought the course. It's not. It's not like you know you've already bought the course. It's not like you're saying you should do this now. If it was about selling product then you wouldn't have included it. But it's really clear because the very first module it's not even hey, you've got to come up with a business name. Your very first module is hey, you're awesome and you can do this and you're worth it and you've got a vision. That's why you've signed up and validating all of the reasons why people sign up, and I think it's really important to have that because it's a step to start something new. And it was one of the like when I was going through the module, because I'm working through the worksheet like a good student and it's.

Speaker 3:

I've done a lot of courses and some of them I've had moments where I've gone oh man, I don't know, I don't know if I can do this, I don't know if I can finish this. You seems too hard and everybody seems to be doing it better and there's a competition and it's the competition. When that gets in there, you start going oh man, well, if I'm not going to be the best, then what's the point? If you're not first, you're last. So who knows why am I doing it?

Speaker 3:

But I thought it would be great if everything, if every uni course or every subject or every whatever it was that you engaged in where it was taking a chance and taking a risk, there was a reminder there at stages that said okay, if you're feeling wobbly or if you're feeling like this is hard, that's because you're being challenged and because it is hard. If it's feeling difficult, it's because it is Like this is difficult. But you know, like one of oh my gosh I don't know if you've come across Mind Bubbles yet no, and she's a oh my gosh, gosh, please check it out. Please note that one down mind bubbles.

Speaker 3:

She's in Queensland, um, and one of their phrases is I can do tricky things yes so they've got five things that you know you can introduce at the start of every session, and one of the things is I can do tricky things and I say that to myself, it's for you, it's for you know early learning. I say that to myself, it's for you know early learning. And you know I am loved, I'm strong. I can do tricky things, yes, and you know, and you cover that in your very first module. So if you know if people are feeling a bit wobbly, of course you are Like we get wobbly and you know we are challenged and that's okay. You know challenge. I listened to a podcast with Gigi from Alone.

Speaker 3:

And oh my gosh, she's amazing. And when she was talking about leaning into the discomfort and sitting with a discomfort, we're pretty quick to move away from discomfort and you know I spoke before about, you know, being in the wind and the rain and the cold and you know that's discomfort. Yeah, it can sit with it.

Speaker 1:

And I think this is the thing in the course is people go, oh, I couldn't. Possibly. There is nothing special about ourselves having started this business. It was purely that willingness to fail, fail fast and ask questions, and I think it's curiosity. And rather than going, oh, I fast and ask questions, and I think it's curiosity and rather than going I can't do it, it's like well, what are the ways? Exactly like you said, who's in my support network? Who can I ask where there's going to be a safe landing place.

Speaker 1:

But if I could have a dollar for every person that said oh, I'm a bit worried about, I won't say competition, but you know I'm not as good as, and I just think if I could squash that word flat like a bug pretty please not that I encourage flattening bugs but I this, this sector.

Speaker 1:

If I could wish anything for this sector is collaboration A just because of our bigger vision and mission. But I just think there's room for all of us. Children need it. We're a burgeoning new sector anyway, so there's heaps of space and this needs to be place immersed and person immersed. So, even if you set up shop next door, we're going to be running two vastly different programs and we're going to be attracting two vastly different types of participants. That's beautiful. That means nature is more accessible. So I would love everyone to put that quote above you. Comparison is the thief of joy. Collaboration over competition, and see who you can help you, you know, because it's only going to benefit you and karma's real. Karma's real. The more you give, the more you will get back. And I just think, I think it comes back in nature too. I honestly think nature thanks us working here and that's probably going hippy dippy, but honest to goodness, I sometimes go out there and I'm, I know, the trees are thanking us for bringing children here today.

Speaker 3:

The leaves, they just start and it's like they're alive and they say, oh good, you're here.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for bringing children to laugh here. You're in play amongst my, you know, a bit nicer version of the giving tree book yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3:

You know, you touched on that. You know you could set up next door to someone. You know I've never. If you know there are two physiotherapists in a town, you know it just means that there's more support for people who need physiotherapy. And I think when you're working in the outdoors and with nature and when you're genuinely committed to community I went to say creating or expanding, but it's not those things, because you're not even doing that, it's just you're committed to community, you're engaging with community and connection. It's um, I think most people that I've spoken to and most people that I've engaged with are just oh awesome, you know, it's just encouraging and oh fantastic. Um, and it's been the same in outdoor education as well. You know I can't think of too many closed off people. I reckon I can count on one hand the number of people who are closed off, and it might actually be because they enjoy nature more than people, not because they don't want to share.

Speaker 1:

No truer words spoken, and I think that's it. If we were worried about competition, we wouldn't have started this course. First of all, because the hottest spot for nature play is now the Sunshine Coast, you know which I am so excited about. But we have had many I'm going to genderize here many a male say to us what are you doing? Why don't you franchise this? You're giving it away, it's too cheap, yada, yada. I'm like, yeah, we could do all those things, but that feels icky to us, it's not the right. We can't McDonald's nature play, nor would we want to be the ones that do it. It just it doesn't feel right. And I just think this needs to be accessible, and it's already. You know, there's already enough barriers to getting people out there starting this that there would just be another one.

Speaker 3:

So collaboration collaboration, collaboration there really are. Yeah, that's it, and I mean through your course as well. You know you talk about that. You talk about competition, you talk about competition and you talk about collaboration and about seeking out you know similar industries within your area to collaborate and it, you know, on one hand, on a business sense, it does help with marketing and getting out there, but it also helps with, just you know, if you've got the same vision, then you're working with like-minded people. And, yeah, if you've got that commitment to engagement with nature, then all you're doing is just creating space for more people to engage with nature.

Speaker 1:

And when we have more people engage and become comfortable with nature, develop a relationship benefits, and it's so nice to be able to speak to people that speak your language and get it too. You know it's, even if they're, you know, pure outdoor rec and your nature play. They still get it. They still get the fundamentals of why we're doing what we're doing, and we need our own little villages in amongst this. You know we need a support network to fall back on when things get hard. Speaking of hard, where are you up to in the course? What have you found the hardest to navigate so far?

Speaker 3:

And is there anything we could add? You already know what the answer is. I'm sure I bounce around a little bit because when I'm working on one thing it kind of leads me to another thing and if I have a question, then I can look through the resources and odds are there's going to be a resource there for me that answers it, that I can work on and just enhance my knowledge of it. And if it's not a be all and answer, then it's at least a guide for me to say, okay, cool, I can, I can. That's a starting point and I appreciate, I actually I actually appreciate the subtlety of not spoon feeding information, because I wouldn't learn it if it was spoon fed.

Speaker 3:

And I think, with a lot of and a lot of things that are covered and I have a lot of like in terms of risk assessments and management and policies, I've worked in that for a long time and if it was spoon fed to me now, I think I'd miss a lot and I'd leave my participants unprotected. To be contextualised, right, yeah, and it would be. You know, if I didn't already have, if I came into this fresh. You've given like a really good frame and scaffold for people to think about what they're going to need to look out for to keep their participants safe and because there are risks inherent in being in the outdoors. You know you don't want to skirt over it, of course there are.

Speaker 3:

There's risks in social engagement, there's risks in hurting ourselves. There's animals, there's other people, there's other people, there's cars, you know there's all sorts of things. So, um, yeah, I bounce around a bit. I'm up to insurance, um, and that is my biggest challenge, um. Did you get it?

Speaker 1:

did you guess it? Well, it was either. You know it was either the ledge, and where you fall in your programming, or the insurance generally, the the two hardest parts. They are. They are just hard and you're exercising your heart muscle, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And look, actually, for me, I think it's difficult. And it's not difficult because it's inherently challenging. It's difficult because it's time consuming yes, and I kind of want to get started as well and it's slow.

Speaker 1:

It's difficult because it's time consuming and I kind of want to get started as well, and it's slow, it's slow, but you just want your answers back that week and done, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 3:

And look at least. I think we're in a good position now where there are people insuring these activities again. Yes, and especially for new businesses, because there was a period of time where new businesses were not, and probably well, don't put that in.

Speaker 1:

No, it's okay because we are working really hard behind the scenes and in fact, should have a set of industry best practice guidelines for nature play out in the next couple of weeks. Oh great, yeah, because that's what insurers are really not flat out telling us, unfortunately. But what they're saying is where's the industry guidelines for your decisions on these policies, risk assessments, et cetera? So far, it's been us Canada that's where they are, Yep exactly Canada and wildlings and the UK for some things.

Speaker 3:

But where we're struggling. Which is what I've based, you know some of my policies on is Canada and UK and it's like, wow, when is Australia?

Speaker 1:

But there will be, which is great. So, yes, and there are insurers now insuring everything, because there was a period of nearly two years where insurers were choosing not to insure one, essentially one activity which was infuriating.

Speaker 3:

But we're back which is exciting, given that departments are able to access those activities.

Speaker 1:

Everybody is allowed to access those activities, or has been, and they just decided to take it away for a period. Tricky, tricky, tricky. Yes. Has there been any unexpected bonuses that you were surprised to find in the course? Has there anything, any resource that you were like? Oh, I never even thought about that. That's been super helpful.

Speaker 3:

Oh my goodness, I've never been an employer before Um, and that's a big one Again.

Speaker 1:

you know what?

Speaker 3:

We exercise a lot of hard muscles.

Speaker 1:

Insurance probably wasn't my biggest challenge.

Speaker 3:

We exercise a lot of hard muscles. Insurance probably wasn't my biggest challenge. Insurance probably isn't my biggest challenge, it's just my hardest, you know, most work-intensive challenge. Getting my head around being an employer is going to be my biggest challenge because I'm not there yet. Biggest challenge because I'm not there yet.

Speaker 3:

It actually prompted me to figure out how I can get used to the one facilitator activities first, before introducing more staff members. And that's a challenge for me being a sole trader as well and not having a partnership or another person, because if I don't have the employees or that other person to come in and and and you know, make up ratios and run programs safely and effectively, um then you know I'm, I'm it's limited somewhat as to what I can do, so I have to be a bit more creative so that I and I think it's important you know we talk about introductions to things and learning and taking risks you know it forced me to think about what level of risk I'm willing to take in terms of the depth of knowledge I'd like to have, whether I want to go for depth or bulk. But so the resourcing for the employment stuff has been fantastic and, you know, even just things like I hadn't even considered that I'd need to think about workers' compensation or superannuation, and you know what kind of award any employees would come under and then you know. Then, to know what kind of award you're going to come under, you need to know, you know what regulations you're working under and you know it's what's in your job description. It's been fantastic Correct, but it's been fantastic.

Speaker 3:

That was the biggest surprise. I think that just kind of went oh my gosh. I'm so glad this is here, because I wouldn't have thought of that at all and I'm not saying that I wouldn't have come across it Totally. I think it's just great that it was there as part of the heads up. You're going to need to think about this and I know that it's evident in other courses and you know I've got a lot of support from other people as well and organizations, but it's yeah, it was great to have it just there as a module that I could go whoa, it's great that I could go whoa, it's great.

Speaker 1:

I think you brought up a really great point in that when we're starting a business, if you're looking to start anything other than a play group, which are not hugely profitable unless you're charging a premium and if you're not charging a premium, then you're not making money, and if you're not making money, you're paying for insurance and whatnot.

Speaker 1:

Then heads up. You are going to have to become an employer fairly quickly in your journey, and that's okay and honestly, I think that was my most terrifying part too, having been an employee my entire life and not being surrounded by other business people. Look, my friendship circle are employees. Well, were, funnily enough, that's changing the longer I'm in business too. So just be not even just be prepared, but just be aware that if you're not prepared to become an employer, then making your business sustainable as a sole trader in this sector could be difficult, unless you're running multiple high-end play groups or one-on-one NDIS or other.

Speaker 3:

there's other ways around that yeah, and there are, and you know there are. You know I'm starting to get creative in developing workshops and yes thing, and you know, through other organizations and and things like that. But also just, I'm also asking questions through other business owners and through um I'm I'm seeking support, and from all different angles, because one business will come up against something that another business might not, and they've learned lessons from that. And I am at a stage where I think I just I'm not shying away from asking questions. I would like to know there is no fault in me not knowing, because I've never done this before. There's no reason for me to be an expert. I've never done it before, so I for me to be an expert. I've never done it before, so I'm going to be asking questions.

Speaker 1:

That's my second wish for people doing this course is to make use of that Facebook group, because we're just one business with one experience and, while we run the gamut of sectors from early years to, you know, adults, there is a huge plethora of experts in that group that come from a huge wide range of experiences, years and years, like hundreds of years of experience in nature, play, education, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

So tap into it and even if you you know, yes, ask the question publicly, yes, join our bi-monthly calls. But also just DM someone Like if you go, oh, I just saw that other program running that looks amazing, what is it? How is it? What's your ratio? Flick them a DM. That's the whole point of this group is to have this network of experts, and I know none of you think you are yet, but you are. You're just bringing your expertise from other areas into this tiny little niche. But gosh, the experience in this group blows my mind.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, and I think you touched on a really important point there as well is that, like nobody thinks they're an expert, that's because nobody knows what they're doing really. I mean, I first put my hand up.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, we have our experience and we have our knowledge and we can't discount it. You know it's really important. Um, I know the things that I'm really good at, um, and you know I'm quick to identify and share the knowledge that I have in certain areas. But at the same time, there's a heck of a lot of stuff that I've got no idea about. And that's okay, because that's what community is about. You know, you know one thing, I know another thing. We put that together and we learn together. You know, and that's how we move forward.

Speaker 1:

If moving forward is where we're going. Yeah, and that's yeah, or the spiral, but that's the other beauty of this group. We've had people go oh, do you have this resource or does anyone know about this? And I'm like, well, that's new to me. I haven't even thought about that, even in our years of running this business. That's never come up in our business. How great, let us look into it. We'll create a resource. Or someone else will say, here's a resource that I've done for my thing. Like it's just, it's incredible. I learned something from that group all the time. Yeah, so again, like you said, not the expert, and it's a good sharing community as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's it. I've just been productive enough to join a community of great minds is really all that's happened. All that's happened. That's amazing. Is there anything else you want to talk about before or add, or first of all, with your vision for Bushwalking Mama, do you have an idea yet and of where you want that to go, what that might look?

Speaker 3:

like. I've been creating this mission for about 10 years, so I have a big Excel spreadsheet with several columns of different avenues that I would love this to go. It's all based around just connection and community and comfort and discomfort, and it's just about creating space for us to engage with nature, connect as part of nature, learn from each other, and that's for all ages. I have a considerable amount of experience through outdoor ed in running activities and creating space and just there's a lot of activities that are a starting point for that engagement and I don't see it as a running an activity for engagement. It's always as a starting point for engagement because I know that you know, for instance, at the moment I'm running a nature journaling activity over Instagram and over Facebook and there has not been one time where I have gone out with my journal with a vision in my head of the activity that I'm going to do, where I've stopped, when I've completed that activity.

Speaker 3:

So I've gone out and I've done the activity and, you know, said right, that's it, Kick the box, I usually end up in a space that's completely different to where I started. So, yeah, I think the connection is the biggest part of it and I see, especially with women, and not as an isolation but as just as a cultural experience. You know, I've camped a lot in a lot of different areas and we did a big trip around Australia, as I know that you did as well, and I know that I met a lot of women that were maybe not so much fearful but inexperienced and uncomfortable about their inexperience in the outdoors or setting up a tent or lighting a fire. And I think we restrict our ability to connect because we're not learning from women.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 3:

I know that there's been times. You know, my first mountain biking experience, for instance, was with some guys who were like just do it, just do it, just do it. And I went hang on, that's not. That's not actually how I need you. I need to listen to my feelings and they're like I don't have time for that.

Speaker 1:

We're riding.

Speaker 3:

And I'm not saying that that's the experience on the whole, because you know, I've also had great instructors who have been men, who do validate that experience. But I think there's a different sense of community and engagement when you're a community of women learning from each other, and I think it's, you know it's, it's ancestral, you know it is. When we're learning and we're communing with women, it's ancestral and we get, we are, we are in a place where we know we're in the right place and learning in the right place. So, being able to offer a space where we can share knowledge of the outdoors, or share knowledge of how to light a fire, or set up a tent, or back a trailer, or navigate or dress for warmth and comfort or how to, you know, do whatever it is. And I say sharing because everybody has, everybody has something to offer.

Speaker 3:

And for the women's spaces that I would love to, I don't want to create them, but women's spaces I'd love to create, invite, I do want them. Yeah, invite, I invite people to. I would like them to be a sharing and collaborative space. It's not just me going hey, this is how you light a fire, do it this way every time it's. You know we're sharing and hey, you know we need a fire.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, there's so much in that. I love it. Still, one of my favourite things to do is to teach women how to light fire. There's something really empowering and the confidence you can see them go. Ah, like it's almost when you've been unable not unable when you haven't been given the opportunity to do it, you might not even think about it, but when suddenly you can, you go oh, I've missed out. Like this is something I've wanted to do and I can do it, and it's just so empowering. I can't even explain how empowering it is from even my perspective.

Speaker 3:

But you're also creating a living, breathing thing as you do it, it's almost maternal and primal, you know, because it is Fire, is living and breathing. It eats, it feeds, it breathes, it moves. It has quiet times and large. You know more active times and you're creating life when you're doing it and as life creators, you know it's a really powerful thing to be able to do that with bushwalking mama.

Speaker 3:

it's just more experiences for play and more opportunities for play, because it is just that's where we do all of our learning. And yeah, just I say instruct, but it's not instruction, it's learning, you know education shouldn't be about teaching. It should be about learning.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's all learning. I think I'm going to say anyone listening that has never lit a fire before, I don't care what your gender is If you go to, if you're in a scenario where someone is about to light a fire, why not ask them and let them know? Hey, I've never lit a fire. I'd really like to try it. Can I learn from you? You know, and have a go, because you will surprise yourself. I think, I don't know. It feels like one of those things people think they're not going to be able to do. And again, who cares? There's no such thing as failure. Worst thing is going to happen. Someone's going to help you get started but you're going to learn a lot.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I couldn't do it. The first time I did it I told you about my year 10 camp. I didn't even light a fire, I rolled myself up in my top and cried. But then I had an experience where I was. You know I was in a workplace and one of the one of my I'll call them a colleague, although it was the nineties and we didn't have colleagues then. You know the guys I worked with. You know I wasn't allowed to sit by the fire unless I'd lit it with one match. So it was, you know, thanks mate, so it took me a long time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's not like he didn't help me, he guided me, but you know it was. It was learning and practicing and going. I can't do this and then learning how to, you know, keep a fire going if all you've got is wet wood and, yeah, tips and tricks and learning that if I want a fire in the morning when I'm camping, if fires are allowed where we are, then I've got to put some stuff away the night before so that it's dry. It'll make it a lot easier Hard lessons?

Speaker 1:

There is some, and that's the thing right, it's not a one-off lesson, it's everything in nature is a learning journey, and you're never an expert, and I think that's the beauty of it. We're all just lifelong learners.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so what started as something that was me just documenting me playing with the kids and trying to inspire or encourage other families to do, you know, to have something to do outdoors. You know, it's kind of moulded into bringing it offline and making it a personal and in-person experience, because if we're just doing it online it's not really. The connection is there online but it's not really. The connection is there online but it's not the same connection as being in person and actually being on the earth and creating that community.

Speaker 1:

I cannot wait to see how your journey unfolds, because it will change and move and grow.

Speaker 3:

Me too, Nikki.

Speaker 1:

It's super exciting, so exciting.

Speaker 3:

I want to fast forward. I want to fast forward, I want to fast forward.

Speaker 1:

I know it is, and I think that's another thing people need to know is that you know we used to run this as a 12-month container, but what we have found is that some people have the time right and the space and probably privilege in there at that time to get things done more quickly. But you'll still get held up with insurance, with red tape, and that's okay. But other people might take two or three years in between life, and that's okay too. It's okay for things to happen in the time that they need to happen. Don't compare For sure.

Speaker 3:

Don't compare, don't compare, that's it.

Speaker 1:

All right, we've gone. We've way over time, but that's okay, I'm still going to put the rapid fire questions. It's lovely. It's so lovely when things just naturally unfold. All right, here we go. What's your favorite book of all time and why, or what are you currently reading?

Speaker 3:

I can do both. My favorite book of all time is the Little Prince, because no matter the age and no matter when I read it, I'm always able to take something from it and it's just pure gorgeous lessons. But they don't tell you what the lessons are.

Speaker 1:

It's not written in there and art, you know it's not written in there and I'm also.

Speaker 3:

I'm reading Braiding Sweetgrass at the moment. I still haven't read that how, oh, please do I'll send you my copy.

Speaker 1:

I'm at that, honestly. I keep looking in bookstores and it's not there and I need to just buy it online or something, because I'm a big supporter of our local bookshop. I'll actually go in and ask her to order it for me. All right.

Speaker 3:

Where do you?

Speaker 1:

go, or what do you do to reset after a tough day?

Speaker 3:

Depends what has prompted the toughness. But look, you can't be going outside going for a walk, and whether it turns into a walk where you need to purge energy or whether it's a walk just to remove, I think going for a walk is just a really good thing to do. But I also just I really love telling people when I've had a tough day, and not in a, everybody needs to stop what they're doing. Because I've had a tough day and not in a, everybody needs to stop what they're doing because I've had a tough day. But although I do that too, but you know it's just I like having the support of my family and my friends. You know we're we're a unit and I go to them.

Speaker 1:

Awesome, how nice that you've got a I go to them. Awesome. How nice that you've got a safe space to land.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yes, very nice.

Speaker 1:

If you had to choose just one thing to change about that, I'm going to change this for you the outdoor recreation system. What would it be? Oh, I don't know. Usually ask education, so feel free to switch over to education, but I thought that's your zone. Is there anything you'd change?

Speaker 3:

Do you know what I think there are? I think there's a lot of change that happens because of the people that are in there. I think the outdoor education zone sometimes really does work from the bottom up, which is fantastic because the people who are on the ground working with participants. I think there's really good conversation in that area and so I wouldn't change that. I think that's a really good thing because, yeah, I think people see what's needed and I think the outdoor education sector and industry is pretty privileged in the time we spoke about before that they do have that space and time to be able to do that as well.

Speaker 3:

You know we can respond to this thing rather than react to it, and I think that engages really well. It would be great if education had the same privilege and the education system had that privilege to be able to respond rather than to react, and that they had that, you know, on the ground, bottom up kind of influence.

Speaker 1:

I agree it. It's funny when you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, you know, there's so many micro groups within outdoor recreation too, and again, there is an education too. Right, but there's more flexibility. To say this is what I've seen as a sector and this is what we believe needs changing, and it's listened to. I feel like maybe a bit more than teachers get listened to, which is really sad, because far out, do they know some stuff?

Speaker 3:

Oh, they really do, they really do. And you know, I've heard you ask this before and you know, heard all sorts of answers and I knew, like when I was, I just thought it's not the teachers, you know. If it, you know what would you change? About the education system.

Speaker 3:

I just thought it's not the teachers, you know. If it, you know, what would you change about the education system? No, it's not the teachers and it's definitely not the students no one has ever mentioned whatever whatever needs to change, it's not those two things no, no, 100%.

Speaker 1:

And again, it's not. I don't even think it's a bias from having worked in there and not wanting to offend teaching friends, because I know no, the only reason they are still there, despite all the things that they face, is their deep passion and advocacy for children, and you would never change that, absolutely, yeah, no way. Slowly, slowly, we'll get there. And finally, christy, where can we find out more about Bushwalking Mama?

Speaker 3:

Well, I am on Instagram and Facebook and I am getting my website up now, which is at bushwalkingmamacom, and if you ever want to get in touch, you can contact me at info at bushwalkingmamacom. That's Mama with M-A-M-A-a yay, I'm so excited.

Speaker 1:

It brings me such joy seeing these babies burgeoning and getting their own wings and you know, it's just, I cannot wait to see what your, your bird, your little baby looks like and all all its iterations because that's the other again, when we fail fast, when failing is fun all the iterations that, all the learnings that you'll have along the way, that end up as your place immersed, person immersed, community immersed I was going to say beast. Beasts are beautiful, they are, we are, that's right. Thank you so much for coming on and it's been an absolute privilege.

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for providing a resource that is just a gift to help support people who want to take this step but need that support. So thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

Absolute pleasure. Can't wait to come visit one day.

Speaker 3:

Bring your woolies.

Speaker 1:

I am such a lucky duck because there are just so many parts of working in our business that I love, but I have to say helping people start their own nature play businesses is probably my favorite. Seeing people like Christy believe in herself enough to take the leap from employee to employer, even as scary as it is, makes me so happy, because I just know that more children are going to be able to connect with nature and access the outdoors safely and she's going to be able to work in a job that she already knows she's good at and just loves going to work every day. So here's to more wild businesses popping up all over Australia and the globe and until next week, stay wild.