Raising Wildlings
Raising Wildlings
Low Demand Parenting with Amanda Diekman
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
If you’re anything like us, the title of today’s episode, “Low Demand Parenting”, made you take a hopeful gasp and wonder if low-demand parenting could actually work for your family and take some of the weight and pressure of parenting off of your chest.
Well, after chatting with Amanda Diekman, author and leading voice in the neurodiversity parenting movement, I can honestly say I felt some of that weight lift as she gave me and all our listeners permission to say, ‘It’s too hard right now” and let some things go.
Amanda's wisdom and insight into the realities of parenting uniquely wired children hit a chord for me and I hope you too find the permission you may be seeking today to radically accept your child and family where you and they are at.
For Full Show Notes Head To
https://www.raisingwildlings.com.au/blog/low-demand-parenting
When You're Ready, Here's How We Can Help You:
- Want to learn the "on the ground" skills you NEED to run children's activities with fire, water and hand tools? Bush Kindy Skills is for play workers, educators and aspiring forest school leaders. Apply now to get an invitation to our FREE training.
- Are you ready to create your own Wildly Successful Nature Play Business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to start your own Wild Business.
- Want to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.
Welcome back to Raising Wildlings — where we explore raising brave, resilient, curious kids who feel at home outdoors.
If you're an educator ready to bring more nature play and child-led learning into your Early Years program, our Bush Kindy Professional Development Workshops are for you. You'll walk away with practical tools, risk-benefit strategies, and the confidence to take learning outside in a way that's safe, meaningful, and genuinely exciting for
You know this podcast is just a small part of what we do at Wildlings Forest School. So if you want to find out more about our range of programs for children, our professional development workshops for educators, our free downloadables, blogs or our online store, just head to wildlingsforestschool.com. It's all there waiting for you. Come and join the village.
If you're anything like me, the title of today's episode, Low Demand Parenting, made you take a bit of a hopeful gasp and wondered aloud if low demand parenting could actually work for your family and take some of the weight and pressure of parenting off of your chest. Well, after chatting with Amanda Deakin, author of the new book, Low Demand Parenting, coach for parents and neurodivergent children, autistic adult, and leading voice in the neurodiversity parenting movement today, I can honestly say that I felt some of that weight lift as she gave me and all of our listeners today permission to say it's too hard right now and let some things go. Her wisdom and insight into the realities of parenting uniquely wired children really hit a chord for me today, and I hope you two find the permission that you might be seeking today to radically accept your child and family where you and they are at. We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we record today. The Kabi Kabi and Gabby Gabby people. We recognise their continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place. We recognise Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. We respect all Gabby Gubby elders, ancestors and emerging elders, and all First Nations people listening today.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family.
SPEAKER_01Each week we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled.
SPEAKER_02We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in, and join us on this next adventure.
SPEAKER_01Hello and welcome to the show. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us this morning. How are you?
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I'm so glad to be here with you.
SPEAKER_01Yay, it's eight o'clock. Where Amanda, where are you?
SPEAKER_03It's 8 p.m., not a Yes, I am in the evening. Um and I'm in North Carolina on the east coast of the United States. And I live in an intentional community of people. There's about a hundred of us centering people with disabilities and being kind of a support network for one another. So I'm joining you from the North Street community in North Carolina.
SPEAKER_01I would love to actually, would you like to tell us straight away a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm aware of in Australia that that I know of. I could definitely be wrong. If anyone knows of that, could you post that in our comments on these posts and on the show notes? Because I would love to hear about them in Australia.
SPEAKER_03We're a very rare community. So there aren't a lot of other neighborhoods like ours in the United States, although there are a number of intentional living communities where people move into the same neighborhood or the same apartment building in order to kind of step out of the isolation of kind of the postmodern life that we live in and return to some intentional community building with one another. Our neighborhood is particularly growing out of some really long and deep relationships that as adult children go from being teenagers to being adults, oftentimes the support networks drop out, especially when those folks are living with disabilities and their parents are left alone without uh without the school and all of that built-in community that support often can be a support network. And so a number of those parents joined together and started asking, what's going to happen as we age to and where do our kids belong? And we started dreaming of a neighborhood where belonging would be all of our primary identity that we all belong and belong to one another. So it's um it's an urban neighborhood. We live kind of right in the the most hip bar restaurant scene in our city. So it's kind of fun um to place to be and it's right on the bus line. So transportation is good. But yeah, my me and my husband and our three young kids are are here um living life in a in a really beautiful neighborhood. We we my my kids have this category of neighbors that they're they've got this like 80, roughly 100 people that we know by name and face and that they can go up to and get help from at any time. And it's very different than the sense of neighbor that I had growing up. Particularly in a city. As like somebody you yeah, right. You maybe wave at them or know their car, but like we really know each other. So that's it's a rich gift.
SPEAKER_01That's magical. I just I love that, like you said, is an absolutely intentional and that you've all gathered together with that value, that one value of belonging, which is is is such a source of want for so many people. So well done on actually manufacturing that to actually exist.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We could have a whole conversation about just how messy and complex it is to try to make that exist. And yet it is so beautiful and precious.
SPEAKER_01Well done. And and exactly that. We are complex human beings and relationships are the trickiest. So again, the fact that it's is actually existing and still exists. I can't imagine the way that it's gone into that. Which probably leads me into your business, low-demand parenting. Can you tell me, can you tell us a little bit about your journey and the few of the moments or catalysts that led you to starting this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Um, I will say I'm an autistic adult, and so a few words and quick overviews, not my strength, but I've gotten better.
SPEAKER_01This is why we love podcasts, though, because we get to have this deep conversation rather than, you know, a two-paragraph or you know, two-sentence bio. We're deeper than that. We're more complex than that. So I'd love to go deep dive, go nuts.
SPEAKER_03Okay, awesome. I'm always tempted to say, so I was born in 1983.
SPEAKER_01It's context.
SPEAKER_03Not that deep, not that deep. Um so when let's see, I would say a key moment in my journey is when I had three children under four. And my four-year-old was really struggling, my two-year-old wasn't speaking, and I had a newborn who obviously needed me for everything. And the world around was kind of heading down one path and all of our friends, and it felt like we were heading down another. It just didn't track the experiences that we were having. I would sort of check, like, is it really hard for your child to get dressed? And people would be like, Oh, yeah, kids are the worst. Like, so is it taking you an hour? Is your child rip off everything you put on them? Do they scream like you're burning them? Um, no. And the more that we saw after support, the more that the support asked of me, specifically as the mother. So while I reached out thinking this is too heavy, too hard, I need somebody to lighten my load. That is what it meant to me to try to get support at every step with every professional. It was, you're not doing this right, or you need to do this better. And let me give you a protocol of things that you now need to layer on to your already hard life. And no one ever asked me, what's hardest for you? How can I make this easier for you? What's your primary problem you're looking to solve? And could I help you solve it? And I mean, that just went on a lifetime of no one ever asking me those questions and me never counting the cost to myself, always giving, always pouring, and never asking, is this doable for me? Am I okay with this? Is this worth it to me? Those were not questions I was raised to ask. Um, and in a big part because of I didn't know yet that I was autistic, but a big part of the way that I lived an undiagnosed autistic life was by mirroring and mimicking what everyone else did, which involved a disconnect from my own internal wisdom and knowledge because I wasn't I wasn't operating out of that space. I was operating out of, okay, what is everybody else doing? Okay, that's what I'll do too. And so I started doing that in my parenting life as well, just just mimicking what I saw and what I was told. And the the hard story is that things got worse and worse and worse from there. I have amazing, magical, wonderful children. And yet the parenting paradigm that I was using, it was not working. Um and to give them credit, you know, they were each telling me in their own way, like this isn't working for me.
SPEAKER_01They're very good at that.
SPEAKER_03They were. Um, but I was really having a hard time hearing that and thought that if I just tried harder and did better, and if I was more consistent, then we would have this like dream life that I felt like it was always just outside of my grasp. And then when my middle child turned six, they went into autistic burnout in a very severe way. And so they um they had been pretty um verbal before that point, but lost most of the ability to communicate verbally. They watched YouTube in their room for 10 to 12 hours a day. They were eating under a blanket, processed food only, all of these markers of good parenthood just gone. And I was faced with a decision like, is this a failure? Has my child failed? Have I failed? And if this is a colossal failure, then we need somebody to come save us immediately because you know, we're not we're not allowed to be like this. There's something so deeply wrong. And yet I knew that that way of thinking wasn't working, that I'd tried that now for eight years, and it and it was killing something inside of me. And so I thought, what if I can trust this child? What if this is okay? What if this is an okay play place to be? What if I try wrapping myself and each one of my children in radical acceptance? You are good enough just the way you are, even 12 hours of YouTube, even pretzels only food without the ability to speak, with massive meltdowns, we're okay here. And honestly, that changed everything.
SPEAKER_01I think it would change everybody's life hearing those words.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it changed everything. And having it come at kind of the the bottom moment for this particular child um was really life-giving for me, I will say, to to stop believing that my worth as a parent rested on how well my children did at anything.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Did everybody hear that? Can you repeat that, please?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but my worth my worth as a parent is not dependent on how well my kid does at anything, at anything at all. That I am a good parent. I I now believe that good parents see, respect, and love the child that they have. Yes, the child before them.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that is what I do. Oh, amazing. That is amazing. It is so hard when society and culture and you know neurotypical world is telling us one thing, and yet everything in our being and our children's behaviors is shouting another. And to listen and to be able to hear when you're in that deep distress too, to be able to hear that and act in it. Oh, I can't imagine how hard that was. And that and but seeing the difference as well. Where did you go from there next, individually as a parent and as a family?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we moved into self-understanding was the first phase. Um, what is this? Was a question that I was asking. Uh, not how do we change it or get out of it, but what what is happening? I want to see and I want to know what I'm seeing. So I began diving deep into the the DSM, the diagnostic and statistical manual. I wanted to understand what is autism. I was driven to understand it. Um, because several points along the way, I had asked professionals about this child. Like, are you sure we shouldn't seek an autism diagnosis? And at every turn, I got very false ideas about what autism was. Like, oh no, like they make eye contact and they've got a great sense of humor, and you don't have to worry about that. And I want to say, I'm not worried. I just I just want to I would actually I would be relieved. It would be in a name and a community as opposed to this very singular, isolating, no one is like us kind of experience. Um, and of course, the deeper that I dove into the criteria, the more I saw myself and my own childhood. Um, and so my middle child was diagnosed about six months after burnout started. We got their official diagnosis. And then three months later, my 38th birthday, I got my official diagnosis. Um, which is How was that for you? It was such a mixture of sweetness and grief. I was so gratified, so proud of this community that I was joining, and um this newfound sense of self-understanding. And I also grieved so deeply for the reality that I didn't have it sooner. And I know that if I were to go back to when I was an early teenager, when things first kind of started to to what's how do you say it? Like become really, really hard for me. I think the time where I most would have wanted to know that I was autistic, um, the culture wouldn't have given me a positive self-identity or led me down helpful paths at that point. So I've come to a lot of peace that the grief is really for if I could know what I know now about neurodiversity and autism and then bring that back. But that, but not that like, oh, how did someone not see, or what if I had actually been diagnosed? Because I don't know that um that I would have gotten a lot of actual help, the kind of help that I needed at that time. So it's been spent two years ago now, and um the grief has lessened and the the sweetness and joy has just rippled into abundance now, knowing this about myself. Um, it explains so much. And also I'm like, oh, if in 40 years I'm much more autistic than I am right now, that would be really fantastic. That's a dream for me.
SPEAKER_01It's so beautiful to hear such positive, affirming words because it's not being the narrative, and it's so wonderful to hear it changing and for people to have this belonging and acceptance for who they are. It's just that simple and complex.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. It's just that simple and that complex. Yes, I love that. That is well said.
SPEAKER_01So you you've both had your diagnoses. You've how did low demand parenting come about? And and was this part of it?
SPEAKER_03Yes, so I heard about in the same journey of discovering what is this, I read about pathological demand avoidance online. And when I read those words, I thought, this is my child. Like finally, we've found something that fits. And the experience of PDA children and adults um has been so marginalized and so shamed and misunderstood for so very long. Um, that I do feel a lot of gratitude for being on the earth at this particular moment that even five or 10 years ago, it wouldn't be the same as it is right now. And there really is a watershed happening of um like these aren't bad kids clearing out the oppositional defiant disorder and all kinds of behavioral disorder diagnoses. Let's see those go in the trash where they belong. Let's talk about trauma and attachment and nervous systems, like, yes, this is what we need to feel.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I I come from an education background. And when I first read exactly, you know, the all the PDA things, I just fireworks in my brain because I could see so many children that had been labeled negatively. And it was all, you know, their they, their behaviors, their their naughty. And and when I saw the this I just went, finally, because you know you know those children so well, you know it's not them, you know it's a reaction to the environment, but we never had the language. So now we do, and that's that is life-changing for these children.
SPEAKER_03Yes, certainly life-changing for me, for my husband, yeah, and and for this child. Um, so the the start of low demand parenting was me going to the internet, and everybody said, Oh, you need to be low demand if you have a PDA. And I was like, Okay, let me get the book on low-demand parenting. And it didn't exist. There was no manual, there was no website, there was no map. It was just do this crazy thing where you drop demands. So I took the closest thing that I could find, which is Ross Green's The Explosive Child, and the plan C section of that philosophy. So if any of your listeners are familiar, there's like adult-imposed solutions to a problem, there's collaborative solutions to a problem, and then there's kind of plan C, which is where you just let go of the problem and if at all possible by letting go of the expectation that's creating the problem. And so that was where I dug in and thought, okay, this to me seems like the closest to what my kid needs. And so I just began really attuning and listening deeply to my child's at that point, very dysregulated behaviors. So I was listening to them scream at me, kick the door, dump their food, um, hit their sibling, rage. I mean, I was like, okay, I'm gonna let it all in. What are you telling me? I am here to listen. And I listened and I listened and I listened, and and I learned a lot. I learned at first, I learned that breakfast was the hardest time of day because I was bleary from a rough night of sleep. I just wanted coffee. And it was like every little thing was creating a ginormous reaction. So, okay, you didn't pour the milk in my bowl right, or this isn't the right spoon, or the the cereal box isn't turned right. And so we just started, instead of trying to problem solve those things, we asked, I asked, what is too hard right now? And how can I let that go? And that language became the central guide point for me is is this hard or is this too hard? And when when things are hard, we do our best, we show up, we ask for help. When things are too hard, we let it go. And that the capacity for something to be hard is really the window of tolerance. And it really relies on your nervous system. Much can your nervous system handle the challenge of something being hard? And at that point, my kid didn't have, I mean, just an ice thin window of tolerance. So it was either doable or it was too hard. We didn't have any hard zone at that point. Um and seeing the hard zone open up as their nervous system has gotten more resilient and more steady, and as we've now been doing this for two years, has been incredible to see what they're capable of. But at first, we like, okay, I think sitting at the table is too hard. And so we started bringing the cereal upstairs. I think hearing the milk poured in the bowl is too hard. So I'll pour it in before and then walk it in already filled with milk. Um, choosing like a verbal conversation is too hard. So we printed out a menu that had pictures of all the cereal boxes. Having anything besides cereal was too hard. So all those other healthy breakfasts out the window, it was just cereal. And um, and and any and hearing siblings was too much. So we kept them on different floors and kept doors closed, and we just dropped all the things that were too hard about cereal in the morning, and that was it. Everything else was like chaos.
SPEAKER_01But if you're not in it, you don't understand it, do you? Like if if I just love that you've gone for our family, this is the thing that is setting the day off and starting it off and and setting all of our nervous systems exploding. Yes. Let's just like it's too hard. Let's just drop it. I just loved that you radically accepted that as well for your family because uh you're you're a team and you need you you need to be supporting each other no matter what that looks like for the rest of the world. And I that acceptance again is I can't imagine how their nervous system has changed from that moment.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, but uh the ability uh and this is true for all of the low demand approach, that the ability to access food safely is what we did. We said the the key here is for this child to feed themselves first thing in the morning when they are super dysregulated because hunger is deeply dysregulating for all of us, but especially for a PDAer that is experiencing it both as a demand and as a um as wonky body sensations. Um and and so with the low demand approach, I have I I began to see that there were six steps that we were moving through time and time again. It was we solved breakfast, and then once we felt like breakfast was solid underneath us, then we began to work on riding in the car because that was such a too hard zone and was leading to all of this unsafety. And but we couldn't, we couldn't access anything in the world if we couldn't get there somehow. And so we began to drop all the things that were too hard about riding in the car until we found some way that we could get from our house to a place we wanted to go that felt safe to my child's nervous system. And with each layer that we piled on of like, we can do this in a way that actually works for you, it it began to, I mean, ripple isn't even the right word. It was like we were rebuilding the foundation that had never really existed before. Because it did everything had always been too hard, and we were on sinking sand all the time. And then finally we were rebuilding with solid rock, and so we could stand on these pieces. And so thing after thing after thing that we dropped and let go of and reshaped until it was safe, until it was doable, until it was steady. I began to see that we were moving through six steps and I began to jot them down because I love systems, I love patterns, and I love um naming things for my kids, especially when we're moving through patterns, because it gives us all this sense of like, oh, we know what this is and we know what to do.
SPEAKER_01That predictability is so safe, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03It's so marvelous. Um so this first step was where we would wonder what is too hard. And we at the beginning, you don't know because it could be any number of things. And often the things you think in the beginning are going to be too hard, don't turn out to be them. Like parents in my community all the time will say, you know, turning off screens is what's too hard. But then it becomes evident that it's really not the turning off the screen that's too hard, it's that you're having to turn off the screen in order to go to bath time, which the child hates and is deeply dysregulating for them. Or you're turning off the screen in a way that doesn't honor their autonomy or their needs. Halfway through a game. Yeah. And so then they're feeling disrespected and unheard, and then that carries over into whatever happens next. So it was really recognizing that like we don't know yet what might be too hard. These are some of the times of day that are difficult, or this is where we're we're struggling to hear each other, and you just kind of wonder. And then the second step is listening to your child. And really, I hang out in that second step, listening to my children. I just I just stay there. I just listen and I listen and I listen. Oh, you know what? I don't often do this, but I skipped one of my own steps. It's um before you listen to your child, you actually need to check in with yourself. So this I think I it's very similar to the de-schooling process. I think the um like the unparenting process. I don't know, I'll have to come up with a better term for it. It's it's where you go from, well, I'm doing this because everybody says I'm supposed to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because society tells me parents do, yeah. And good girls, especially.
SPEAKER_03Good girls, good moms. It's all yes, it's so icky. Um and and very oh persistent, that those beliefs.
SPEAKER_01Shining, guilt.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're trying starting to step off the path and they and they hunt us down with all their judgment and try to drag us back. Um, so I think that finding your my why, why am I letting this go is how I always try to turn it around. So not um just what matters most, although I think that that's a really important question, but even specifically, if I think about like dropping dinner time, for example, or shared meals around the table, that was very much a place of shoulds. It's like we're I I didn't grow up with a family that ate meals around the table. So I very much glorified the idea of doing that, and I longed for it in my own family. It's like, oh, it's gonna feel so good when I sit around this table with my precious kids and and we just enjoy each other. And it never worked like that. It never did. Uh and and and yet letting it go felt so painful. So then we could grief into oh all the grief. Um so then why was I letting it go? Because if I just dropped it without really grieving, or without asking, How does this live out my values? How am I being true to me in this moment? Then it ends up feeling like it's laced with resentment and frustration and resignation. And those are not places, steady places to parent from. So then every day at dinner time, you know, I would be feeling like resentful, frustrated, sad. And so I realized, oh, I want for my children to feel safe when they eat. That food is a place of true nourishment. And that wasn't happening at our family table. And yet, as we began eating alone in these various settings, then I discovered that oh, one of my kids has mesophonia, and the sound of other people chewing is lighting up his entire brain and nervous system with fight or flight. And that is why he could never sit in his chair and why he was running laps around the room and hitting us. And he is so happy to eat by himself. And what a gift.
SPEAKER_01What a gift, what a gift for his nervous system.
SPEAKER_03Yes, but we didn't find that out until we dropped the demand, and he experienced what it felt like to be truly safe. And then he came to me and said, You know what? I never want to hear again is all of you all crunching around the table.
SPEAKER_00He said, Oh, that explains it.
SPEAKER_03It's oh gosh. And then you listen to your children, and then you drop the demands, and it just all rolls from there, from this information, this what it really rolls from. And this is, it doesn't happen right away. And so I want to say that it can take time to get to this point. But the real point of low demand parenting is the trusting connection that it builds with yourself and your own intuition and with your children. And I believe because I practice low demand in all parts of my life, so I also drop what's too hard for my partner. And we let each other off the hook all the time. Um, so I also believe that it is a creates room for trusting connection with other adults as well when you recognize that they're doing the best they can and some things are too hard. And if it is too hard for you to do the dishes at the end of the day, like that's okay. Let that go.
SPEAKER_01And we're a team. And maybe I have capacity tonight, maybe I don't, and I can forgive that in myself as well. But that language is so powerful. It's too hard today or now, but it might not be tomorrow, but right now.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Right now is one of my favorite phrases. We use that all the time. It just so helps so much to stay in the present. So I define a demand as anything that is too hard in the present moment.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's perfect. Yes. Because it you're right. Yeah, sorry, keep going.
SPEAKER_03Well, well, I mean, then you don't necessarily know what might be a demand for tomorrow. That's part of the reason that keeping a demand lens is so important, that first step where you wonder, I don't know, sometimes it's too hard when um, oh, like today in the car on the way home from a movie. Um, all I we brought a friend, there were four kids, and they were all talking at the same time. And sometimes that's too hard for me in the car. And I have to say it's a quiet car or put on my noise-canceling headphones if I have them with me or my earplugs. I didn't have them with me. So I asked everybody to bring the volume down to a five because it was too hard for me when they were all talking at once. That's not always true. Sometimes I'm a little more resilient and my nervous system can handle it. And today was not one of those days. So we had to drop the volume. And just saying, hey guys, it's too hard for me when you're all talking at the same time. Can we use quiet voices? We all know about too hard. Like that's like a clear family value. When something's too hard for somebody, we're all like, oh, what can I do to help?
SPEAKER_01And there's very little demand in you saying that as well. When you're saying it's too hard for me, can you, rather than shut up? Okay, you know, you need to be quiet. You have to be quiet. Well, straight away that's going to set other nervous systems off as well. But when you're owning that too hard, there's acceptance in that that it's that it's required to help you. And I think people are much more likely to help when it's not a demand.
SPEAKER_03I agree. Yeah. One kiddo shrieked and then said, Oh, sorry, mom. And I was like, it's okay, I'm all right. Um, but just holding holding space for one another. And another thing that I really believe in is the power of being proactive and dropping demands proactively. So if it's always hard for me when they're all talking in the car, but it's too hard for them to ride silently, that's where I do the work and I invest in a good pair of noise-canceling headphones that I keep in the car. And it's a one-time, I decide once, I commit and I resource myself so that I can let go of the expectation that that they would be able to do quiet car and that I'd be able to handle the noise with a solution that meets all of our needs. Or another thing, we often take two cars. And so the people who need quiet, we were able to have two cars. The people who need quiet ride in the quiet car. The people who are typically louder ride in the loud car. My husband drives the loud car, quiet car. And it's a system we all know that we often take two cars places. The main reason is so that when somebody needs to leave early, because especially my middle child still really struggles with kind of cumulative nervous system dysregulation. And so if if the event is noisy or long or there's other people issuing demands, they just can't feel safe in that environment. And we need to have the option to go home. So we that's a demand that we drop that they stay anywhere, pretty much. Um especially if we haven't been there before.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's just I also might want to tap out early.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And the joy of the low demand life, the way now that we're a couple of years in and we're doing this day in, day out, it's that it's actually an anti-shame life.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, oh, that one hit hard. Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03Yes, because so often we are operating out of shame, which is telling us there's something wrong with me. I'm not supposed to be like this. Doesn't you know, no one else is having a problem. Right. Why are you having a problem? It's got all this, like really harsh language that it uses with us. And then it says things like deal with it. Um, you know, I've been talking, thinking a lot about quitting things lately, because that like being a quitter.
SPEAKER_01Think about how you were not be a quitter.
SPEAKER_03What a shaming statement, right? And I think that like dropping, letting things go, dropping demands, it belongs on a pedestal. Like it is an incredible strategy for meeting our needs and for being like a connected, trustworthy person in the world. Like I am a more trustworthy person when I let go of the things that are too hard. Because then I can show up when it's not too hard, wholeheartedly, as my whole self.
SPEAKER_01And knowing that you can trust those in your circle to accept that in you too, that that you trust your children to be honest about where they're at in that too. So the assumption would be, oh, everything will be too hard and and we'll wait on these children, but it's not that at all. They accept they they are so happy to be accepting that someone can see their when they're feeling limited. Well, they have sorry, when they have limited capacity and when they have open capacity. I I feel like my own children in those situations are more giving. I don't know if you find that similarly or not.
SPEAKER_03I I definitely do as a rule. I think it's it's more, it's very complex. Specifically the way that trauma and yes very um sensitive nervous systems play into that, I think is is a bit more complex in the moment. But I think in the big picture, yes, absolutely, that that kids are always doing the best they can to please the adults in their lives.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And really, I I carry that as a heavy burden that this child is doing the best they can to please me. That means it is my job to keep these expectations as reasonable and doable as possible because they don't actually have as much built in to say, hmm, do I am I gonna do what you say? Maybe I won't. They don't. They don't, their life depends on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's so it's instinctual at that moment. Can you touch, can we rotate back to that about trauma for parents of highly dysregulated kids? Because again, I feel like we're in this great moment in time where this is again a watershed happening. But I don't know that it's out mainstream yet. So can we touch on that a bit more?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um, I was kind of giving the arc of our story with burnout, and then six months later with diagnoses. What I left out is that six months after that, about a year into burnout for my six-year-old, they started doing a lot better. A day came where they were like, thanks for the pretzels, mom. And you know, that was a as more words than I'd heard in months. And then they were like, let's play. And we started playing, and it was kind of miraculous. And also, my um, you know, I didn't have all the words for this then, but my nervous system was like, oh, they're okay now. I'm gonna fall apart. My child's doing better was actually what created enough safety for me to move into the next phase of my healing journey, which was a complete undoing. And my symptoms became so acute that I was diagnosed with PTSD. And I really deeply considered doing like several months' residency in a program that would be treat, would offer treatment for the trauma. And I think that most all the professionals in my life really thought that I should do that, that I should go and seek inpatient treatment. And yet it was too hard for me to leave my family.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that the trauma in that?
SPEAKER_03Yes. It was, it was, it ended up that was too hard for me to step away from the only people who knew what I was going through. And so I'd found a way to do an intensive trauma treatment right here from my home. Um, but my husband took a month off of work and took over the main parenting role so that I could step away because I was I was not resilient enough to go through any more meltdowns. They were destroying me. Um and since that time, I've talked a lot about what I experienced. Um, I was having trouble eating, I was having night sweats and shakes. Um, I was using whatever would help me to curb the symptoms. So oftentimes I would need to drink a beer after a meltdown because like I was quivering and I needed something to kind of dull the intensity of my body's um responses. And I found much better medications for that than beer. Um, I can say that it did not work that well, but it was better than nothing. Yes. Um and um and ultimately, like my takeaway is that those of us who've been through real trauma in our parenting role, we deserve that level of care. That PTSD is not just for soldiers or um for one-time events, but that cumulative unsafety in a place that in the world is kind of the only place where you feel want to feel safe. And also in an intimate relationship, you can't walk away from.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03I think that's really important to say. And some parents do, and some parents need to, but the vast majority of us do not want to and cannot fathom leaving our kids, even though if someone else did those things to us, we would walk away in a heartbeat. Holding that duality. I don't deserve to be treated this way, I love you more than life itself. It's really crazy. Complex. And so I needed a team around me that could hold that complexity with me. Never ever demonize my child, never push a wedge between us for all the work we'd done building up to that point. And they were thriving and healing. And here I was falling apart. And I needed people that could hold all of that with me and say, we'll walk with you until you're feeling steady until you can see the light.
SPEAKER_01And I did. And I couldn't. Amazing team to be able to hold that complexity and duality as well. There's not enough of that.
SPEAKER_03I think I was the first for all of them. They were like, we've never done anything like this before. But I feel with every clinician that I educate about PDA, about parenting trauma, um, and and all of us, I think, okay, I've been the first, and no one else has to be that. So now every person who comes through the door after me, they'll say, Oh yeah, I've seen this before. I know what to do. Um, and that feels that feels really good. I I can remember when my my four-year-old that I was describing couldn't wear any clothes, and we finally found our way into an OT facility that um that knew just what they were doing. And they looked at him and said, Oh, he's one of ours. Oh. And that meant so much to me. And I think if I can leave a clinician ready to say that to the next person, you know, like you're one of mine, I know what to do here. Then that that makes me feel a great sense of oh, I'm getting teary.
SPEAKER_01But it's that sense of safety to hear those words. That I see you, I understand you are safe here. That's so powerful.
SPEAKER_03We need more professionals like that. If you are listening and you are and you want to be that kind of professional, just know how much it means to those of us who walk into your office just in pieces. We just want to be seen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we all do as humans, but with the level of trauma and such, I was going to say unique, but it's not unique. This is the thing, it's not unique. It just hasn't had labels before, and it hasn't had tools and strategies put to certain diagnoses before. And now we have that, and now we can help. And there's more and more people to help. And I just think the world is going to look so different for our children because of this, and that's exciting.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that gets me cheery. I know.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's amazing. I'd love probably the last thing before we wrap up. I'd love to just touch because this it prompted me again. One of your posts, you were chatting about reframing misbehavior and calling itself advocacy. And as a child advocate, that really resonated with me. Can you talk to this a little bit more? Because I know again in education and parenting, so often we label the child rather than I was about to say the misbehavior, the behavior for what it actually is and what what the need is behind that.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I'll say as a parent, it has been um very life-changing to start to listen to my children doing things I don't want them to do, and and instead to see the positive thing that they are expressing in the world by that. Um, even when it makes life harder for me in the present moment. Um other parent advocates have said, um, or I guess they're really child advocates, um, have said that you know, we can't have obedient children and confident self-actualized adults that these two things don't go together. Uh yeah, and for to all the parents who say, like, well, I was I was told what to do and I turned out fine. Fine. We just want to say, did you?
SPEAKER_00Are you fine?
SPEAKER_03Fine. No. Those of us who were told what what to do and who when our you know, I think the number one thing about shifting from misbehavior to to self-advocacy is really remembering how I felt as a child with a lot of big behaviors. Um and like the storytelling about me was that I had had to get my way, you know, it it had to be what I wanted, um, that I wasn't flexible, um, that I complained a lot. Um and I don't connect with any of those things. That's all a very, you know, adult view of a child that for me from the inside, what I can remember is feeling like my environment was never safe for me. It was too hard. And that it was too everything was too hard. And I was trying to say, this is too hard. This is too hard, and nothing was changing. And so remembering that really helps me to tap into my compassion for my children and think, what are they experiencing right now? What does this feel like in their little body without the power or the control or the life experience and all the intensity and authenticity of the emotional experience? That's really tough. And if I add to that labeling and especially negative labeling, um, then they're gonna internalize all those beliefs about themselves as well. And you know, that the things that we say to them become the things they say to themselves. And so what I want them to hear me saying is thank you for telling me that's so important to me. That matters to me. I hear you. What can we do to let something go? What can we drop right now that would make this just a little bit easier? And then we'll say, next time, what would we do differently so that we don't find ourselves back in this place again? Because I don't want you to feel like this.
SPEAKER_00This is not good.
SPEAKER_01My inner child is just thank you.
SPEAKER_03It completely shifts their role too. Then they become a self-advocate.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03They they be start to say, you know what, this grown up really wants to know what I think and it really matters. And so I'm gonna tell the truth. And what I have found is that the kind of coming out sideways misbehaviors have really gone down. And because of this flow of trusting information, you know, if they say, like, I hate the library, it's so annoying here, and I say, What do you think about it? I really want to know. And then we get to it and it finds and that it's like, oh, I actually don't hate the library, I just don't like the way it smells.
SPEAKER_01Like, oh, yeah, they have a funny smell, smell really strong.
SPEAKER_03Um but I like actually picking out books, and then we discover, oh, we can pick them out from the computer and I can go inside and get them. And there's nothing magical about needing to walk through this musty room to smell the yappy smell just to get our hands on the books. And and so there, it's not like whining or misbehavior, it's clear self-advocacy and communication, trusted communication.
SPEAKER_01Oh, these adults that are going to have these voices and these beautiful, peaceful ways of communicating too, to be like, this is what I need. I'm not, I don't need to throw a tantrum about it. Now that I'm an adult and I've worked through all of these things and I can identify what this is and I can find a workaround that will be a win-win. And don't get me wrong, I'm an adult and I still have tantrums. So I probably need to caveat that. And the and we give ourselves grace as adults for those tantrums as well. And I don't think we do that as much for, I know we don't do that as much for children. But I again I'm so excited for this world of young adults that can be these self-advocates and ask for what they need and get it. So then they are walking around and then parenting themselves with regulated systems. It's again, it's cycle, it's generation changing, and I am here for it.
SPEAKER_03Yes, you and me both.
SPEAKER_01So exciting. Thank you. I've got I could I've got so much I could talk to you about, but I think we'll get you back on another episode. Are you ready for some rapid fire questions?
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01All right, again, uh some of them are a bit loaded and some of them are tricky. So, what is your favorite book of all time and why? Or what are you currently reading?
SPEAKER_03Um my favorite series of all time would be Sarah J. Mass and all of her mighty works. I love um complex female heroine um fantasy fiction. Um, but right now I am reading Jennifer Armin Trout, um, which is a kind of similar direction um about well, it's it's a fantasy about magic and power and um and a woman who turns out to be could be a god uh among mortals. And it's I just love I love all of that. Um I think if I was born in another time, I would be uh like a a mystic or um a god amongst mortals. Something like that.
SPEAKER_01I love it. All right, where do you go or what do you do to reset after a tough day?
SPEAKER_03I often don't get a lot of space. So something that I love to do is the 60-second reset because I'll go through a really hard moment and then literally the child is like, Mom, you know, can I sit on your lap and braid your hair? I'm like, in the moment, you know? And so I but I also know that this is an essential part of the healing process from what we just went through. Exactly. And I want to show up for that. So I'll tell you my 60 seconds what I do. Um I drink cold water through a straw, like super ice, just a little bit of water because there's a lot of research about cold and the way that it brings you back into your body. Um then I grab something crunchy or some gum so that I get my mouth chewing. Um, I take a deep breath, like with my arms all the way up, and then I let it all out in one big massive sigh, and then I go right into it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. And probably almost ready to be as well. Like that's we do at Forest School, we do the that same movement, but we call it the wood chopper, but it's the exact same thing, and we put a real big expression into it too to move that somatically, those feelings out of our body. And sometimes we chop chop a lot of wood. Pretend or real, but that eat that pretend movement and that yeah, yeah, but it's so important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I did a lot of somatic work in the healing of my trauma that um I carry with me into every day.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna try the ice water through a straw trick. I've never heard that one before. That's that's a great idea. All right. If you had to choose just one thing or a couple about the education system to change, I worded that badly, what would it be?
SPEAKER_03Gosh, uh, I would make it optional instead of compulsory. Um I would probably try somehow to take the power dynamic out of the relationship between teacher and student so that it would give students more autonomy and creativity and authority over their own learning process. Um, and I would do a massive education campaign among teachers about neurodiversity and trauma and so that they had other tools besides behaviorism for seeing what they're seeing.
SPEAKER_01Wouldn't that be nice? I did my teacher education 10, 15 years ago, and it was only, only behaviorism. I know now there are some universities that are introducing trauma informed practices and even, you know, our needs, our additional needs, which was not labeled that 10 years ago as well. Um, it we barely, barely dived into neurodiversity. Again, and it and it came from a lens of how do we stop these behaviors? It wasn't how can we help this child. I know that is slowly changing, but it's not quick enough. So please, if you're an educator listening to this, please push for your school, your your childcare setting to get people in, whether it's like people like Amanda, whether it's you as a parent coming in and advocating as well. So we need we need more squeaky wheels pushing this. Thank you so much, Amanda, for that beautiful, beautiful conversation. Um, where can we find out more about your work and low demand parenting?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I'm very excited. My first book called Low Demand Parenting is just been released this week. So when this comes out, it will be available all the places the books are sold. Um, it is a short, readable book that is designed if you are in a dark spot. Like I wanted it to be something that I could have picked up when my child went into burnout. And I thought, well, what now? Um, that this is something that could have reached me at that point. Um and there are two, there's a whole section on screens, two chapters, and two chapters on partnering. So that if you're thinking, because those are the top two things people tell me, like, well, I couldn't be low demand, I couldn't let things go because I I wouldn't be able to deal with it around screens. Um, that's the one thing I couldn't let go of is my control over their screens, or I couldn't do it because my husband will never get on board, you know, he'll never do it. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna write about those things and how you can figure out what's too hard for you and for your husband or your partner or your mother-in-law or whoever you are parenting with um that is having a hard time, like you can you can enter in with them. Um, so that is my first resource to share. Um, and the second is that I really love connecting on Instagram. I'm low demand Amanda online. And I would love it if you listened to this and reached out to me over DM and just said, like, hi, I heard you and thank you for, you know, whatever. Um, that would be amazing. And I do my best to always write back. So um the other thing I would say is just reach out to me and say hi. That is a key way that I get my needs met here in the world, is actually by finding all of you wherever you are in the world, knowing you're out there. It it builds me up and makes me feel so connected to a wider, larger family of people who really understand. So you'd be you'd be serving me by reaching out.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that is that is such a beautiful, generous offer of because I know running our own social media, how demanding that can feel at times if you don't reframe that demand to be purposeful and choosing that as well. So thank you for offering that. That's really big and beautiful. And that work is so important. Like you said there, I am absolutely not aware of anything like this out there. And just from this conversation alone, I can think of half a dozen families in my circle that will absolutely thrive from the information in it. So thank you for putting this work out. We really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much. Thank you for also such a deep and rich conversation about it as well. Um, you know, we sometimes we can get lost in kind of the nuts and bolts or the playing devil's advocate. And I really appreciated this chance to to really just dwell in the wonder, the opportunity that we do have with these kids to create something beautiful and world-changing. And um, so thank you for creating this space with me.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for again that permission of radical acceptance for everyone. I think that alone, that one sentence alone is is generation changing. So let's let's continue it and watch that. I was gonna say ripple, but watch that tsunami. Uh thank you, Amanda. What a delight. I can honestly count on one hand the amount of people I've spoken to on the podcast who are working so joyously in their zone of genius and with such purpose. This chat today with Amanda really gave me the permission to look at situations that I might be having with my child or children and be able to ask if it's too hard for them right now or me, if it's too hard for me right now. And if either of us believes that, then to just let it go. It was also really wonderful permission to let go of those societal expectations that cause such dysregulation for our children. So for us here at home, what I've been practicing this week is, you know, trying to get one of our children to wear a nice button-up shirt or pretty much anything but soccer shorts to special events. I'm letting that go. It's just not worth the fight for our family. And it also looks like sleep-ins and really slow mornings for our family because half of our family can't be rushed without huge dysregulation. And to be honest, probably also just not going to school for our family because and and also neither of us parents working five days a week because that's how our family stays regulated best. So hopefully this episode gives you the permission to also let go of anything that causes great angst or dysregulation in your family that you might only be doing for society when you truly look at it and break it down. We would really love to hear the kinds of things that you're choosing to let go of. So why not head over to our Raising Wildlings Podcast Instagram? That's Raising Underscore Wildlings underscore podcast, where we're going to be sharing all your stories and thoughts all week about what you're choosing to let go or what is too hard that you want to let go of. So come on over and say hello. And until next week, stay wild.