We're back, baby! Kicking off the 2024 season of the Raising Wildlings Podcast with our friend and fellow business owner Gill Howarth from Born Wise Education.
Gill always brings her wisdom to the table and it's great to have her back for an in-depth discussion on what raising "wild and free" children truly means.
Listen in as Gill shares:
🌱Her experience on the delicate balance of granting our children the space to navigate their fears and the world at large.
🌱The spectrum of childhood "wildness" from mentorship to fostering autonomy.
🌱And we confront the crucial question: Are ideas of wildness and freedom more reflective of our aspirations as adults than the experiences of our children?
Listen in and come away with a deepened understanding of nature play, child-centered learning, and the broader movements towards decolonising forest school education.
Other ways we can help you:
We're back, baby! Kicking off the 2024 season of the Raising Wildlings Podcast with our friend and fellow business owner Gill Howarth from Born Wise Education.
Gill always brings her wisdom to the table and it's great to have her back for an in-depth discussion on what raising "wild and free" children truly means.
Listen in as Gill shares:
🌱Her experience on the delicate balance of granting our children the space to navigate their fears and the world at large.
🌱The spectrum of childhood "wildness" from mentorship to fostering autonomy.
🌱And we confront the crucial question: Are ideas of wildness and freedom more reflective of our aspirations as adults than the experiences of our children?
Listen in and come away with a deepened understanding of nature play, child-centered learning, and the broader movements towards decolonising forest school education.
Other ways we can help you:
In today's episode I'm chatting with the wonderful Jill Howarth from BornWire's All About Raising Wild and Free Children. What does wild and free really mean anyway? What does child-centred mean? We'll be interpreting the philosophy of child-centred education and parenting and talking about what we can do if one child's autonomy might be interfering with another person's autonomy. Might be a bit controversial at times, or it might just plant some seeds. We hope this discussion opens your mind up to some ideas and starts some conversations about the language that we use in and around nature play. We like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we record today the Kabi, kabi and Gabi Gabi people. We recognize their continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place. We recognize Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. We respect all Gabi Gabi elders, ancestors and emerging elders and all First Nations people listening today. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. I'm your host, nikki Farrell, and today we have with us the lovely Jill Howarth from BornWire's.
Vicci Oliver:Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education and stepping into the wilderness, however that looks with your family.
Nicki Farrell:Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less traveled.
Vicci Oliver:We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School Popping your headphones, settle in and join us on this next adventure.
Nicki Farrell:Welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. Today we have one of our I'm going to say semi-regular guests, who we are hoping to be quite regular Jill Howarth from BornWire's. How are you today?
Gill Howard:Jill, I'm good. I'm good, a little bit tired just coming back in from that. You know January, december, holiday periods. So yeah, I'm mostly good. I'm just trying to remember who I am and what I do at this point, but yeah.
Nicki Farrell:I could have heard my conversation with Jill just seconds ago. It's a combination of overwhelm and anxiety and PMS and but we're here and it's okay and we're human and some days particularly when it's January and you're not sure what day it is feel a little harder than others. But I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic because it is something close to our heart and, I think, something very idealised perhaps in our sector, in the nature play sector, and that's a topic of raising children wild and free, or raising wild and free children. We want to dissect that a little bit today, really trying to work out what we believe wild and free means, what does child-centred means, and kind of trying to interpret the philosophy of that, not just in education and parenting, because obviously they cross and sometimes when we have differing philosophies there can be a clash. So why don't we start Jill with? I guess, why you wanted to talk about this topic to start with. When you, when you pose this question, I went yes, absolutely. I'd love to hear why for you.
Gill Howard:I think it's been an ongoing kind of interest of mine the whole time I've been a teacher, really, you know, especially having worked you know I've mentioned this before mostly alternative based schools that attract, you know, people who want to look at different philosophies and different ways of doing things.
Gill Howard:But one thing that I've always noticed is that the philosophies are so easily misinterpreted by the individual, you know, and often individual families, and what nature based means to me might be something very different than what it means to you or to another family.
Gill Howard:And so I guess I'm just interested as an educator and a parent and also, you know, somebody who really believes that the way we treat children and raise our children has great significance for, you know, the way we live our lives in the future, the culture that we're building, and so I think it's important to nut out some of these questions, and I don't think it's even necessarily that we have to all be on board and agree that these are the dot points as what it means to raise wild and free children, but I think we always need to be looking at what we mean by that and having conversations around it, because one of the biggest mistakes perhaps we can make as humans and I know this because it's something I've only just learned how much I do is assuming that the other person or the other group or the other community or the other family actually thinks the same way you do, and I've noticed that this is where, you know, we come up with these phrases like wild and free children, or I know there's similar kind of confusions and conversations in the different parenting styles.
Gill Howard:I've heard these, you know, around what is conscious parenting, what is gentle parenting, and sometimes there's this idea, I guess, that if we find other people who prescribe to this philosophy, then we've met people who are going to do everything in the exact same way we do, and I don't think that's ever going to happen and I don't think it needs to happen. But I think conversations as to what do we want for our children when we say wild and free, you know they're very broad terms. What do they mean? You know, essentially, for me this is just an exciting opportunity to talk in a space that honors childhood and you know nature based parenting, education and just and kind of nut out some ideas. I guess, yeah, figure out what it even mean when we say that.
Nicki Farrell:Yeah, and I think that's a great starting point, because I'm sure you're the same where you've seen two ends of a very long and broad spectrum where wild and free for some might mean children get choice to do anything they want, no matter what, possibly with zero or very little consequences, all the way to a very regimented, military-esque schedule, you know military-type diet, military-type screen time and everywhere in between. So let's break down the terms too. What does wild mean to you, and is it any different between what it means to you as a parent and what it means to you at born-wise?
Gill Howard:Yeah, that's a really good question and I think for me the first time I the word wild in connection to children even came up as a topic was it was probably about 15 years ago when I was working and I described to my mentor that, you know, a group of boys seemed really wild and I know at the time when I used that phrase back then I didn't mean it in a positive sense.
Gill Howard:Their wildness was actually disrupting something in me and it didn't feel good. So I definitely didn't use it. I know I used that word in a bit of a like critical way, I think, or at least an uncomfortable way, and I remember she looked at me and said well, what is wrong with that? You know why is that not okay? And I had to sit with that. And you know they were, it was probably six, four year old boys and on reflection they were being wild. But actually they were wild in the way the wind was wild. It wasn't a bad thing, it was more what it did to me as a quite a new teacher. So I think that was the start of it, way back then.
Gill Howard:And now then I've been through this stage of just feeling wild as like such a beautiful way to be, and that there's a wildness inside of us that relates to remembering that we are at nature and the natural world is wild, and I'm moving towards more of that gentle kind of understanding of wild, you know, in the way that a flower will grow wildly as opposed to one that you know goes in a more manicured garden, which is a much more poetic way of looking at wild. But I noticed how different humans have very different kind of barometers for measuring wildness and what is okay for one teacher or parent is very different to for another parent. And I wonder is there anything wrong with that? Is there, is there? Is it wrong that we have different measurements for it? And maybe that's just when we need to have conversations.
Nicki Farrell:I had my eyes really wildly wide wide, not wildly opened a couple of years back to when we were broaching the topic of decolonizing forest school and you know we're called wildlings and and we got asked about wild and and why we use the word wild and wildlings. And the person we were talking said, oh, it's a very white word. And I went and straight away I was uncomfortable and I went to be defensive and then I sat with it and went and she was fantastic and she said if my children are playing on the street and get called wild, it's not, it's not a compliment. If a white parent calls their children wild, generally, it means they're wild and free and you know, nature based and so even breaking down the colonization of the word as it has been, wow, I, very white, privileged position have not ever had to consider that.
Nicki Farrell:And I was very, very grateful for the education. You know the way to the responsibility of the education and it really made me look at the word really differently again because, like you said, you can use the word as oh, there's more the wild, or my child so wild, and sometimes it's just the intonation. So I think totally so much nuance in one word and and so much history in a word too, because, you know, while children were rounded up and sent into white homes because they needed the wild tamed out of the near Australia and so, quite unquote, not my belief, obviously, yeah. So how do we decolonize wild and free as well, while we're, I guess, deconstructing what the meaning is? I think it's just is a really interesting topic.
Gill Howard:I think it's a really important topic. I think you've just captured something that I hadn't actually been thinking about too much in regards to this conversation, but it's something that I've been thinking a lot about in the last few months with my work and everything that I do in the world, and how we often aren't aware of that white privilege, and how much language and culture and our belief systems are so entwined. And there's a lot of trend around the word wild at the moment, isn't it? It's become like a branding thing as well and the way we use it you're so right we use it in a way that just captures our understanding of the world and it's like what an exciting. It's like we just discovered the world, isn't it A little bit?
Gill Howard:in these circles it's just sort of like, well, how we've learned this new word and it stands for so much. But then I think it is really important that we keep checking ourselves as to what do we mean, and is there a better word that we're actually trying to find that we haven't got yet?
Nicki Farrell:And maybe that's it. What is it that we're actually trying to encapsulate with the word wild? And I think you did that very well with the analogy of the plant it's? You know there are, as Carol Black called, the killer whale at SeaWorld versus the killer whale in the wild. So is that what we're trying to do in nature play, where we're trying to encourage children's autonomy, and I think we need to discuss in a minute what that means and can look like, and also without judgment, I guess too, because we know that the mainstream system often doesn't allow for the kind of autonomy for children that we can allow in nature play programs as well. So does wild, incidentally, straight away, say that people are not wild if they don't go to these programs? Or what does it mean if your child is not wild and free as well?
Nicki Farrell:And then, is there a judgment within that as well? Yeah, so many big questions.
Gill Howard:So many big questions and you know it's, it's you've. You just mentioned something that I you know I was. That came into my thoughts when I was kind of just contemplating this conversation, and it is that either raw thing you know of, like we're either wild or we're domesticated. I believe the answers are in between there and it's a think again, like this is becoming my answer to nearly everything lately is well, look to the natural world and what does that mean? You know what? How does the natural world teaches about wildness and it doesn't mean that it's always crashing about, being noisy Like there's a gentleness in wildness as well, isn't there? There's a gentleness in the wilderness and it's not.
Gill Howard:Perhaps we, we could do a lot to kind of take that word and play with it and mold it. And because even the word free like there's so much connotations around, what do we mean by free Like? I mean that's a huge philosophical question, but I think for me it's it's looking at. Well, what do we mean by wild play and then autonomy, as you just mentioned? It's. One of the biggest questions for me is watching the children play at at Bourne-Wise and I see these wild, wildness kind of movements come through them. And then there's a point sometimes in me where I start to go oh no, that's not okay, that's not okay. What I'm saying there, that's someone else's autonomy starting to kind of impede on another human's autonomy, and and you know I mean. And then what do we do? You know, is it my right to be wild and free always, no matter how that affects other people, or is that just just a misinterpretation of a phrase? You know?
Nicki Farrell:Yeah, and I think this one's really important because typically and yours might be different, but at Wildlings we generally have the majority of parents following some kind of gentle, conscious, respectful parenting philosophy not all, but I would. I would guesstimate 70 to 80%. It's probably more. Actually I'm probably airing on the on the lower side.
Nicki Farrell:But even within that spectrum there's the very La'se fair parenting or where children can do whatever they want, which does cause problems in our programs at times where our mentors are stepping in over top of the parent because that child is impeding in another person's space joy, play, anything. So for me I believe you can do what you want, as long as it's within the safety guidelines and it's not impeding on somebody else's play to a point. I guess that's again the gray zone, because you know children that we don't need to share and so on. That's another conversation, and I guess there's this whole village parenting as well. We all need to coexist in this space. Happily not all the time, because we're all allowed to feel our feelings as well and things can seem not fair, particularly when you're three, but it's not okay to hit, smack, spit, play with sticks if the child feels uncomfortable.
Nicki Farrell:So, really, jimmy, comes down to consent. Are we teaching children to communicate about consent? And that can be a difficult conversation with parents sometimes.
Gill Howard:It is. I mean, I actually find it easier with the children to discuss these things because we often be able to just sit around with a group of children and just say, oh, you wanted to play that game that involved you running around with a stick and it upset this other person, you know, upset this other child. And I find the children are able to have those conversations of sort of go oh, you know, maybe didn't see that way where they start to. You know, I've had them come up with great solutions where they've created a space within a space that is. This is where this play happened, and if you are not a fan, you know, don't go over here. And you know they've, they've, they've come up with great ways of navigating that.
Gill Howard:With the parents it's much more difficult and I don't know if that's just because our generation maybe hasn't grown up ourselves with mostly that's a generalization but we've been able to express ourselves and have those uncomfortable conversations. And it can be hard, kind of, when there's multiple adults in a space of, well, who's leading right now? You know who who is. It can be uncomfortable for mentors if they have to step in and the parents there and you know it's. Um, yeah, I mean it's. It's. For me, the discomfort is just a like a symbol of the fact well, there's work that we can do here. You know, it's sort of highlighting that there's something to be nutted out here, there's something that we can all really learn from. So let's kind of go to the comfortable places rather than avoid them?
Nicki Farrell:Yeah, 100%. I've learned, I've personally grown so much more in my ability to handle conflict in this role than any other role, any other course at all. And the children, exactly like you said, the children have guided me in that. You know, I've sat down and I have said I'm not even involved in this play, but I feel uncomfortable and I feel terrible that I had to stop this play as an adult when I'm not involved. But this is what I feel and I point out, you know, the stick or the rough housing that in my levels, have got to the point where it's going to end in an injury and they've been so great. They're exactly like you said. They've created safe words. They've said oh well, when this happens, I know that this will make me feel better. Or when such and such clenches his jaw, I stop playing and the child is like do I?
Nicki Farrell:Yeah, you do. Okay. So maybe you could point out when Jill clenches her jaw, that maybe she might want to take a break for 10 seconds and 10 deep breaths. So they are amazing at facilitating these gray zones? I think yeah.
Gill Howard:Yeah, they are, and I guess that's. I mean, maybe that's because they don't have the same. It seems to always. They're better, in my opinion, at having the conversations without judgment or taking it personally. They seem to be. It's a little more removed For parents and educators. Maybe it's harder for us to detach, I don't know. I don't know. We get a little bit more caught up in things.
Gill Howard:But I think this whole, you know even the term of child-centered. I've had lots of conversations with parents at Bourne-Wires who've said you know, they've grown, they've used this philosophy where it's. You know the child always gets to say what, yes, no and all of these kinds of consent. But then, you know, I had a parent ask recently but what happens when the child's saying no to something repeatedly? And I know that they will benefit from moving past that no and learning something new you know how do you do that. How do you still honour this kind of child-centered, respectful, consensual learning that recognise when it's oh, you know, are you actually saying no or are you stuck in this kind of spot?
Nicki Farrell:So, um, that's such a good one and I think again, I think the children are really if they're not in a group situation where they're feeling threatened not threatened, but you know, they're starting to be dysregulated because they're already in a situation where they're not in a private space but when you can get them on their own and you can sit with them and ask those exact questions you know, is it fear?
Nicki Farrell:If it is fear, let's break down the fear. And if we break down the fears into baby steps, what might be the first step for you? I'm not going to ask you to go and sit down and whittle a spear, but right now, maybe you will walk with me in the bush and see what sticks are around for us to whittle and.
Nicki Farrell:I'm sure it's a bigger fear than that. It might be climbing a tree or something like that, but what might be the first thing? It might be walking around the tree, or it might be coaching someone else up and down and but getting then to suggest it as well.
Nicki Farrell:I think those steps I have found more often than not when we talk about the benefits at the end and the feeling of pride and self-confidence at the end, so often they will create their own plan and it's a safety plan generally. So that's an emotional safety plan or a physical safety plan. They are so good at being able to step that out in a way that suits them and I guess that's still autonomy, with a bit of mentorship, because, you're right, it's not complete autonomy. There's still a person of power persuading a small person to be doing something they have told you repeatedly that they don't want to do. So I think when we come in from a conversation like an investigative point of view, perhaps that, perhaps it's not I have this end goal of definitely getting you to this end point, but I'm coming at you with just curiosity to see where you're at and if there might be a possibility of ever moving towards a goal. I don't know.
Gill Howard:I think that's I mean, I think that's the other thing you just said is beautiful, it's perfect and it's sort of echo of that scaffolding philosophy they talk a lot about in Regio.
Gill Howard:We're just kind of supporting you through this and I think it's important to hear these, that's how someone like yourself manages that, because I think for parents that's useful, because if they haven't worked much with children but they've become a parent and read the book, then you can take these philosophies on a very black and white kind of well. Consent means child said this, child said that there's so much more subtleties and so much it's nothing's ever really that kind of binary opposition you know, this or that, or yes or no, or I don't want to make it sound like no is not no, but it's. I think it's conversation and it's just relationships and everything comes back to that. For me, and you know it's a whole discussion about wild and free, like we probably do well to sit down and talk to the children and say what does it mean to be wild and do you want to be wild and free, or is this something that is more important for us adults?
Gill Howard:you know, do they feel the need to be wild and free? Is we so desperately want them to be?
Nicki Farrell:That's a good point, because they guarantee they just want to be children and they don't want to label it all. Yes, what do you mean? Just a 10 year old boy or girl, or in between?
Gill Howard:I'm just a kid, I'm just Nikki 100% and that's probably what we need to keep coming back to. And and you know, for me as a child who I loved being in nature, I loved being outdoors, but I wasn't particularly wild in the traditional sense of it, but I would have been sitting making up stories and kind of very imaginative play and myth and fairy tales and that that's that's a wildness as well. You know, there's a wildness in fairy tales for me. So I think it's like if we can just keep expanding on these terms like wild and free and not and not make them stuck, you know, not make them kind of well, I don't know if many of us are even thinking that deeply about what it is.
Nicki Farrell:Maybe that's just something that I'm always giving that extra thought to you, but we've definitely gone through it with the wild and wildlings and it was a big decision for us to do it, and we had it pre the decolonizing forest school in that term. And so we do have slight regret about that word, with too far down the rabbit hole to change it, but I think conversations around it, at least the awareness of it and the intention behind it, whilst also acknowledging the history and how that has impact depressed and marginalized people, is super important is to remind us of our privilege, of where we are. So. So for me, when I look at wild whether it's in wildlings or my wild and free children To me it really comes down to being connected to nature.
Nicki Farrell:But when I dive into that deeper, we are all nature and we are all connected, even if we live in the biggest city in the tallest high rise with zero contact to nature to me. So really there is no difference between a wild in my head, what a wild child looks like in it, and the most urban child you've ever met. Wild is still connected to nature, so it's almost a moot word.
Gill Howard:Yeah, it could be.
Gill Howard:You know, and it sounds so similar to.
Gill Howard:I have a often similar thought of you know, calling my work born wise, and I mean that was always a little bit of a like a cheeky sort of play on words as well, because it's to remind me that you know that the inner, we've got this, born with this sort of inner wisdom, and to me that is very similar to the word wild or that inner nature and everything around us.
Gill Howard:But then, you know, there's that inner spark, but we're also part of a wider whole, you know, and we're always learning and growing. So, yes, we're born wise, but we're also, you know, it doesn't. That doesn't mean we're born knowing everything. You know, it's like the, the, the sort of spaces in between, and I think you know what you just said about that wildness is, is something that's just inside of us and you know you could argue that I mean very deep, philosophical, philosophical question, but like even someone who's perhaps, you know, prisoner, in jail, could, if they have a certain thing within a wildness, and and a freedom, and a freedom and Nelson Mandela in the world that no one can, you know, imprison me.
Nicki Farrell:I am a free man because I choose to be a free man. That's not what I would picture a free child to be, but if you believe you were free, you were free. So who are we to say? Definitely, definitely. I think this is a great place to stop, because this podcast was never about giving you solid answers. We didn't start this episode with a definition in mind. So right by the end of this, we want to have told the wonderful audience what raising wild and free children means exactly. It's more, like you said, of planting a seed. So I hope you've been thought provoking, I hope that you've got something out of it and love to hear your feedback on whether you're going to change what you call the children, whether that's in your care and your own family. Yeah, please DM us with what you thought about this episode and what you might either rename your children Are they just gonna be children? And what it means to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Nicki Farrell:We hope, as always, that this conversation has sparked some, I guess, thought provoking conversations and until next week, stay wild.
Nicki Farrell:I always love my conversations with Jill. I hope you do too. I love that they kind of weave in and out and we talk about the big ideas that we end up coming back to, I guess, a mutual understanding, which really is always that there is no black and white answer and that everything that we talk about in the nature play kind of sector needs to be place-based and it needs to be people-based and it needs to be rooted in decolonising forest school as well. So I hope, if nothing else, we've planted some seeds and opened up some conversations about the wild and free philosophy and interpreting what a child's autonomy may or may not mean in a village or a program setting and also what child-centred means in education and parenting. Ultimately, I hope you feel wild and free in the most positive context for you and your family, and that these conversations continue to happen and that we continue to break down our privilege around them as well. Until next week, stay wild.